Brand budgets? Tighter.
Expectations on creators? Higher.

Welcome to the new era of influencer marketing; where performance matters most, platforms are merging, and brands can’t afford to get it wrong.

Kicking off Season 3, Verity sits down with Lowri Evans – an influencer strategy expert with experience at VIEVE, Coco & Eve, Revive Collagen and more. Fresh from going freelance, Lowri breaks down the real rules of modern creator marketing;  from Spark Ads to affiliate programs, and why relationship-building still outperforms pay-to-play.

Turn this episode on & up to learn how to:

• Merge Performance & Brand Marketing: It’s time to bin the silos. Lowri shares how results and relationships can (and should) work together.
• Get Smart About Affiliate Programs: From ShopMy to real ROI, Lowri explains how the smartest brands are tracking impact without diluting brand.
• Build Real Relationships with Creators: Forget transactional. Learn why taking milestones seriously might be your highest-converting move.
• Use Spark Ads to Supercharge Results: TikTok content that converts? Spark it. Lowri walks through the what, why, and how.
• Turn Customers Into Collaborators: From fans to featured creators, hear how VIEVE and others are turning everyday customers into stars.

If your brand still sends mass gifting with no follow-up, this is your wake-up call. 

Listen for the insight (& influencer receipts) you actually need.

 

Chapters

00:00 – Welcome to Season 3: Why This Episode Matters

04:00 – Inside the Evolution of Influencer 

07:00 – Relationship-First vs. Pay-to-Play

11:00 – Affiliate Strategy That Actually Drives Sales

15:00 – Spark Ads, TikTok Shop & Performance That Converts

20:00 – Why Brand & Performance Must Talk to Each Other

27:00 – Turning Customers Into Creators

34:00 – Building Real Community Through Real People

39:00 – The Problem With TikTok Shop (& How to Use It Right)

44:00 – Are Nano Creators Your Most Powerful Advocates?

49:00 – What Brands Still Get Wrong About Advocacy

 

Rate & review Building Brand Advocacy:

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Connect with Lowri:

On LinkedIn

On Instagram

 

Verity:

 

Hi, and welcome to Building Brand Advocacy. Today I am so pleased to welcome today's guest, Larry Evans. Um, Larry has been mentioned a few times by past guests already, so it only seemed right that we invite her in to talk about all the wonderful things around influence marketing. Larry, welcome to Building Brand Advocacy.

 

Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. Do you wanna just give our audience a little, I mean, there'll be many people out there that know who you are and know what you do. Um, but yeah. Do you wanna just give everyone a quick intro into Yeah. What you, who you are and what you do? Of 

 

course. Um, I won't go back the [00:04:00] whole sort of 10 years, but.

 

My most recent one, I was influencing community manager at Vive. Um, so the makeup brand founded by Jamie Genevieve. And then before that I was at Cocoa Neve. So like quite a big sort of like global brand freelancing a little bit before that for the like, like revived collagen. Um, and then I would say the biggest one that was like my fast proper ro and I interned from at the age of 13 every.

 

Chancer kid, but the first one was sort of like head of marketing at Spectrum Collections as well, where we did lots of fun partnerships and then Amazing. Yes. I've kind of pivoted. I, we used to be a bit of press and influencer and now I'd say I'm mainly sort of influencer. 

 

Yeah. Just being very modest queen of influencer marketing here right now.

 

And you've just gone freelance. 

 

Yes. Yeah, this week. 

 

Exciting times. Thank you. Okay, like, let's dig in because I wanna just start off like doing some like scene setting. Um, so I suppose like when it comes to the influencer landscape, what do you think since like when you started, like when you joined VIEVE, like how has the landscape [00:05:00] changed?

 

Like how does it compare now to 

 

obviously just. Leaving. Yeah. I would say the biggest difference from like when I started to when I left was the sort of growth in the influencer database. Um, so before they didn't have an in-house role, so we work with blanket pr who like an agency, amazing PR agency.

 

Yeah. Um, and they sort of very much had their sort of core list. Whereas I think my role was to really expand that. So that can even be from sort of like customers who are creators and being able to like have that. Always on person. So if someone came in, like a creator came in to buy the product, maybe I to be really reactive to that.

 

Um, and that's led to some of our biggest sort of sales drivers in the brand just because they were sort of a, a warm lead, I sort of would say. Um, and also working with nano creators as well, um, and spark ads. So I'm a big, you'll probably hear me say the word spark a all the time, and affiliates as well.

 

So sort of introduced. Affiliate platforms, um, and all of that sort of thing. Yeah. So I think that's, yeah, a little bit more [00:06:00] performance, influencer, marketing side, and then just growing the sort of database, I would say. Yeah. 

 

Okay. We'll dig into some of those. Yeah. But, uh, like obviously as you just mentioned, you worked across like various brands.

 

Yeah. Like what was the different approach like with VIEVE in terms of like how you've worked with influencers, how did that. Feel different. 

 

So I'd gone from sort of Coco and Eve who have like huge sort of pay partnership budget to VIEVE where we didn't, we don't actually pay influencers. Um, so that was quite a big sort of challenge.

 

Yeah. Um, because especially nowadays, like a lot of influencers are. Looking for payments. Sometimes it's a little bit harder to build a relationship, but I would say, and I've always said this about VIEVE, it's such a warm brand and I think the founder, like Jamie, like she's just so amazing. I mean, even how she makes a customer feel, but like at every event.

 

And that really helped us sort of get that like influence the coverage, I would say. Um, but it was just. It's was just purely down to relationships. Yeah. So just having that real constant sort of checkin, I think it's really [00:07:00] important, like thanking people for content when they feature organically, and I know it sounds so minor, but those sort of things I would say are really important when you don't have the sort of big budgets of these other brands that the influences you want are dealing with.

 

Um, I would say that's a sort of like. Approach we went with. 

 

Yeah. I mean you get that feel from the brand straight off. Yeah. Like especially with Jamie. And, but just going back to like what you said, it's like obviously the non-paid work, like was that quite a manual thing to like. Build those relationships.

 

I imagine like that was like a daily, like kind of finding the right people and then getting them engaged and having those conversations like 

 

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, really manual. I think when I came in there was already sort of a strong kind of database of kind of core influences we would say. Um, but it was, yeah, more like I was in the dms, whereas I think maybe a lot of influencer managers.

 

Aren't necessarily in the dms of a brand, but I really feel that was like a sort of great tool for me to have because I can see like have those conversations reply to stories. It doesn't always have to be about the [00:08:00] brand and the product. Yeah. But it's just more about checking in, saying they look great even if they didn't use our lip line or whatever.

 

Yeah. Um, and I think that really helped sort of build a relationship, but yet. Like time point of view, obviously that's quite time consuming. Mm. Um, but I would say effective when you don't, when you're not paying them and just sort of hoping they'll love the brand. Yeah. And obviously the products are great as well, but 

 

Yeah.

 

It helps. I also think like that's something that a lot of brands like just forget to do. Like it's that human connection piece. Yeah. Isn't it? And you know, it goes so far. Yeah. But I think like there's still so many brands that just think I don't have time to, yeah. Do all of that manual thing, but actually it pays off in the long run, which is obviously like what VIEVE have found out.

 

Yeah, exactly. I think it is, it is like a slow banner, I would say. Yeah. And it's not like you do this and you can be like, oh, I spoke to 10 people today and we saw this results. Um, but it is one of those things that like the long term sort of, it will, you will sort of reap the benefits from I would say.

 

Mm. Um, and also it's just nice because it means that they genuinely. Love the products and they're a bit more [00:09:00] invested than a sort of transactional contract point of view with paid. And I'm just going off piece 

 

a little bit. I'm just thinking about like, 

 

sorry girls, we're gonna have to interrupt here.

 

Yeah. Um, I'm just gonna adjust something on your, on her mic. Okay. And you're good to go. Okay. Okay, 

 

cool. Do I start again? Oh my God. Do we, we don't have to start again, do we? No, you're 

 

all good. You guys are doing fantastic. I'm just gonna adjust this a little bit because right now it's a tiny bit up in your chin, which is not very flattering.

 

Oh. Just because it's, oh 

 

guys, I appreciate that so much. Rather at the end, no, because I think I was like this 

 

right up in front of your mouth and it's like, doesn't. Quite as, no, I love that. Thank you. I interrupt you now because I feel like you will like them more than finishing the interview and going, oh, you all good?

 

Lovely. You just have a natural lean to the right. 

 

I did. Is it? Is this better? That 

 

is much better. Perfect, perfect. 

 

I always forget that it's actually on visual as well. 

 

Great. Right. You guys are good to go. Thank you. 

 

What was I gonna ask? [00:10:00] It's not even on it, it was just 

 

you, you were going said like you were going off an attention a little bit.

 

Yeah. 

 

Maybe that wasn't a good thing. Um, oh, I was gonna say something around like, segmenting, kind of like the influencer network. 'cause I, I dunno whether this is a question, I'm just like, no. 'cause obviously like with the brand, you'll have like professional. Mm-hmm. Let's just scrap it. I dunno where I was going.

 

If it's not written down, it's not, it's not stain in ear. I'm like that. I was like, what? I gonna say I've got an age to blame. Okay. Right. How did you just send it? So can I just go straight in to the next 

 

question? I think, yeah, I think I, I answered that one and then you said, I'm gonna go off piece. Okay.

 

I'll just, so just, yeah, no.

 

Okay. 

 

We can hear you now. Well, you, [00:11:00] you were sliding down your chair saying, I've got tensions. You were like that. I'm like, that's great. Oh, I've got tensions. I don't even have to try. No, you 

 

don it at all. I do, and I, I think especially if I was like, eh. Oh, 

 

mindless. It's sometimes like I catch myself. I'm like, that cannot be attractive.

 

Okay. See, we're not professional. No, I love that though. Makes you feel way more ease. Okay. Do you think there was like a specific moment where you realize that this whole sort of like influencer role was moving from like brand love to. More of like a performance model, I 

 

suppose? Yes, a hundred percent.

 

And I would go back to sort of like affiliates again. Um, something I'm really passionate about and I think there's so much in the industry to change around that. Um, I think it's very separate at the moment, but I think. When I joined VIEVE, I was really keen to onboard a platform called Shop My mm-hmm. [00:12:00] Um, so we did that and I think we started noticing some great results in traffic and then that's when the sort of conversation started to change.

 

But even little things like I think that some brands don't do as if you'll see a spike in sales or a product will go up sort of 10 jump 10 places in the sort of weekly report. Whereas we should be looking at why is that and who's driving that, because sometimes it can really shock you. So I would say.

 

In terms of like affiliates, that was like the biggest, where I became, I would say, more of a performance marketer than thinking with my sort of PR brand cap on. 

 

Yeah. Why do you think not enough brands are thinking like that? 

 

I just think maybe like a little bit old school, like not in a disrespectful way, but I think.

 

PR is very much like the relationships, the events. Yeah. Um, like kind of like over the top gifting. Like I remember like years ago, like Christmas presents, they would do like these insane like designer handbags. They're sort of like top influencers. Whereas I think nowadays there, there are so many more [00:13:00] creators.

 

Yeah. Um, also as like that nanos are just as important. The to like macros. So I think it's, and also I think brands, it's harder for brands to reach consumers these days. And with affiliates you can really sort of like pinpoint that data, whereas before it's not stabbing in the dark, but a little bit more guessing.

 

Um, whereas you can actually see. In a platform like who is driving sales to a brand and I think every brand wants traffic. Um, so when before traffic was a really sort of hard discussion with sort of like influencers and brands. But now I would say with like affiliates, yeah, it's not easier. 

 

Yeah. And I suppose, do you think this kind of like answers that, like obviously now we're in like closed, circled loops, aren't we?

 

It's like the dms, the WhatsApp groups, the slacks, even like, you know, Reddit's not really closed, but yeah. Um, do you think that kind of like affiliate piece is like. Answering kind of like how to track those, like private conversations. 

 

Um, not necessarily like I would say, like how to track [00:14:00] the sort of conversations, but I think it should be a really big indicator on your influencer strategy and I think that's where the sort of merge isn't really happening.

 

Yeah. So some of the top sales drivers, obviously they have to be on brand, but they kind of should be on brand if they're promoting you from sort of affiliate point of view anyway. Yeah. Um, but I would say. They need to be really feeding that data to the sort of PR teams. So when it comes to doing like an overnight stay or on a PR event, you know, do you have people, obviously you want your sort of brand awareness creators in there, the sort of content creators, but do you have those real traffic drivers where when E-com is you, we don't really see anything from this event?

 

Elise, you've sort of covered those sort of three pillars I would say. Yeah. 

 

Interesting. And do you think there's like a certain campaign or a moment where you really like, it really summed up that this was like more of like a performance piece? 

 

Um, not a coming, but just going back to shop may I think.

 

And not so much just at V, but in the last sort of two brands I've worked with, the number [00:15:00] one channel sort of bringing in new customers was affiliates. And I think that's when then like a lot more eyeballs sort of came onto the platform. And I think we just grew it because when you sort of join is quite of like a slow burner and you have to do a lot of gifting and sort of.

 

Try and, and guess with different people and if they're gonna drive, and some people will really shock you. So there was a creator, she's got like 40,000 followers, like her content's great, but when I look at her, if I have sort of like a blind line, think she's a huge driver, but she drove like thousands of clicks and like hundreds of sales from just a few Instagram stories.

 

Yeah. Whereas, you know, I've worked with people in like sort of 6 million who won't have nowhere near that sort of impact. Um, still if that answered your question, but Yeah. Yeah. No, 

 

it's just like, yeah. Um, again, I was just thinking about something and it's gone outta my head, so sorry. Um, yeah, it completely answered my question.

 

Yeah. Um, and you've talked, obviously you talked about affiliates and traffic Yeah. But before you mentioned Spark Ads. Yes. Yeah. Um, I just wanna kind of dig into that in terms of like, how [00:16:00] is that a sign or like in terms of how does Spark Ads work with the whole influencer marketing piece as a performance?

 

Model. 

 

So I think like quite a few brands are doing it and doing it really well, but I think before the influencer teams would do negotiation, they'd get the pay partnership, they sort of look at their metrics. Maybe that's like EMV or like cost per view, whatever. Yeah. Um, and then the e-comm team would, like, affiliate team would have their own sort of side.

 

Whereas I think what's really key is being able to like boost that content and driving an ad to it. So that content might be really, really key and. Consumers, obviously, I think feel a little bit less sold to if they're being sold. From a person rather than the brand's own channels. Mm-hmm. Because when it comes from brand own channels, it feels probably a little bit more commercial.

 

Whereas when it's a c create on their own channel, um, talking about the product, I think that drives and some of our best performing ads were that, that we spark added. Yeah, spark added as a thing. [00:17:00] It's now and just, yeah, having that sort of like call to action button, driving to the web. Site. I think that was really, really important.

 

Um, and we did loads of tasks and seeing sort of what creators, but some of them like yeah. Really outperformed our best ever like sort of brand campaigns. 

 

Yeah. I, I think like people follow two times more creators and they do brands anyway. Yeah. Which shows a lot in terms of like who they're trusting and who they want to see content from anyway.

 

Yeah. So, yeah, that makes complete sense that that would be happening. Yeah, 

 

a hundred 

 

percent. Um, I'm really intrigued and it's like I've noticed the conversation like popping up a little bit more and I think we should be having it a lot more. Like in your experience, how should performance and brand marketing work together?

 

So I think firstly working together. Yeah. Um, and just really understanding the success from each other. So there's obviously different sort of KPIs I would say, like, but. Making sure that's really well known. So if an event, if the goal [00:18:00] isn't traffic, sort of sharing that and, and just, yeah. Really. Working as a team with influencers.

 

And I think as well the results can really help both. So as an example, we had like loads of TikTok affiliate, um, videos for TikTok shop where they're talking about the I wand where we didn't really see much success. And then Lorna Luxe posted like an organic video that she was gift. Did like months and months before.

 

'cause she just loved it. Yeah. It was a really amazing piece of content. It drove over a million views on TikTok and then that for the algorithm boosted all the TikTok shop videos and sold loads of product and that was like our highest month on TikTok shop. Yeah. So I think it's understanding like how they can work together.

 

So you've got the sort of TikTok shop, if that's what you're doing, video ready to go, and then having those organic moments hopefully that they'll happen. Yeah. Um, as well. But they do really compliment each other. Yeah. The looks effect. Right. Oh my gosh. Insane. Insane. Honestly, she like has such amazing power, like it was sold out [00:19:00] on cold and then we saw like a huge influx of waters on our site as well.

 

But no, she's amazing. 

 

It's so interesting though that like other influencers at that level don't have that same impact. Yeah. 

 

I always, because I worked at Tics before, which was like a sort of beauty box with influences and the kind of purpose was that. They would sell out those boxes. Um, and the main goal is like they have to sell product, otherwise you're left with an influencer's name and no one else can really sell it for you.

 

Yeah, so I think I sort of picked up a few things I would sort of notice. And honestly, it just comes down to, I've always said it like talking to camera on your stories. Like Lorna does that all the time. Yeah. And she's like, she does, you know, she'll go on no makeup on and be really authentic with her audience.

 

And I think when they build that almost like friend to friend relationship with their followers, that's when you get that sort of impact. Whereas you can have someone millions, they might engage in their posts and comments, but they're not necessarily maybe have that same trust. Yeah. And that same [00:20:00] impact.

 

Yeah. Interesting. Isn't it? 

 

No, I love it. 

 

Um, what do you think the dangers are of kind of like putting too much emphasis on the short term performance piece over sort of like, I, I suppose like the, the expense of brand 

 

building, I would say, like missing the potential sometimes. So I think. With like influencer marketing is long term.

 

Um, like we, I've done like an event before and you might not see like a huge hit in terms of results, whatever result that might be until like months later. But that relationship building at that event was really key. 

 

Yeah. 

 

Um, so I think sometimes if you. Focus so much on the short-term results, you do really miss that long-term potential, which I think is really key as part of like influencer marketing.

 

Yeah, 

 

I mean, I was just doing something just before we recorded this and I was saying like, I think performance works really well when the brand has already kind of got that familiarity and the like, the emotional connection and the brand side of things is [00:21:00] working. And then performance thrives when like they, they understand what's converting where, when, and how.

 

Yeah, and like, yeah. I just, I personally do not understand how they've been two silos for so long. Yeah. And like, yeah, I just, it just blows my mind when you see it. Like, when you explain it, it makes so much sense. Yeah. Yeah. 

 

They're like, they just don't, it's so diff, I think it's because PR was probably set up so differently and it was mainly press and let's think about like back to print, whereas you wouldn't see those traffic.

 

Whereas I think now because it's all digital and that's sort of like inference space, obviously digital and the driving links, I think that's when they need to be working so closely. Yeah, and you see, yeah. Yeah. Um, whereas I think back in the day you wouldn't necessarily, they would be completely measured differently.

 

Yeah. What do you think performance marketers can learn from brand marketers and vice versa? What, can I check my notes for this? Because you can, 

 

we completely forgot what I said for that, so sorry guys. It's [00:22:00] fine. Um, this one I kind of struggled on. Did I answer? We can skip it if you want. No, no, no instrument results, not clear.

 

View of potential performance. Okay. Yeah. Good to go. Sorry. Do I need to ask? Yeah, you can just go straight into it. Um, so I'd say, sorry, I need to check one more time to say sorry guys. 

 

I was just the same. Do not worry. Really. 

 

I was just like, I dunno why this one was just not as natural for me. Um. Yeah, going back, I would say sort of those in instant results are not a sort of clear indicator.

 

Um, those like, yeah, short term results and it's thinking about long term like brand building. And then I think sometimes like platforms like, you know, community platform, it's really, I think what you can learn is like having that PR hat on and that brand hat on because yes, you could be driving loads of impressions, but are they the right impressions and are they.

 

[00:23:00] Brand damaging and things like that. And I think talking to each other about that is really, really important. Yeah. To make sure that all the efforts that the sort of. Brand team are doing is not impacted by the performance team. Yeah. 

 

Um, I always think as well, like that the, the whole reach and impressions thing doesn't really, it's not, it's not really like a relevance thing.

 

And like, I think it, like, it sometimes it just shows you the numbers of like who you've actually interrupted Yeah. Rather than who you've actually influenced or engaged. Yeah. Like, I just think those, like, it almost feels like old school metrics in a way. Yeah. 

 

Yeah, no, completely agree. Um, and then I would say.

 

Brand marketers can learn from performance marketers. Just the data side. Yeah. I really think it's so important that you're having weekly catchups with the e-com team and understanding who's driving and they can say, we saw a spike here, and you can say, okay, this content went live here. And really piecing that together and just making sure that.

 

The sort of PR list because you [00:24:00] can't gift to like a thousand people for every new launch. Mm-hmm. Um, that there are some really key sales drivers Yeah. Who are on brand are, are in that mix. 

 

Yeah. 

 

When you've seen them come together, like what do you think was the key thing that really made it work? Um, sharing the data.

 

Yeah. I would say in like a, a nutshell, just like. Sharing it, but I haven't, I would say I haven't really seen it massively working together quite yet. But I think yeah, sharing the data and really involving the brand team, um, as part of sort of like the content for some things. Because sometimes like ads can go out and it's really misaligned with the sort of like influencer pay partnerships.

 

Yeah. 

 

Oh my gosh. I dunno if that answered. It did. And I was gonna say something. You're very good. Oh my God, I, if I even, did I answer that question then? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. You did. Um, what did you say at the start of that? Because I think I, it must have triggered something in me. 

 

What did I say at the start 

 

of that?[00:25:00] 

 

Um, oh, I was just gonna make a cheeky comment. I was just gonna say, guys, it's not that difficult. Yeah. Just get in the same room and have a conversation. Talk to each other. Do I need to say that again or can that work? I mean, you sure? Yeah. I'll cut it. Okay. 

 

Can I just get some water? Yeah. Yeah. And it's hot, isn't it?

 

Yeah. You've been in here like a half hour before as well. Yeah, and I walked in there, I was like, oh, that's so lovely, Nick. I know I'm starting to feel, I guess, I guess you can't have like sound and stuff. It would just, no, I suppose not ruin it. Mm-hmm. Okay. Right where we're at. Um, can you see, can you see my phone on the, no.

 

Perfect. I'm saying no. I can't actually 

 

see, um, we cannot see your phone now. Okay, perfect. Any that you've not put notes under? Are they just like things you don't want me to ask or [00:26:00] just 

 

Oh, I think I did the rest of my notes this morning, so that's 

 

really why I've not seen them. Yeah, 

 

I was thinking, I was like, because I look kept looking for, oh 

 

my God, I missed that whole thing yesterday.

 

There's a lot. I'm just trying to make sure we get the best ones. So we're gonna go into like how did Influence Work feed into FI's own community channels? Is that okay? Yeah. Okay. And then. That's, yeah. And then we kind of go more into like, yeah. So this is more like community stuff. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Let's shift gears a little bit and just talk around sort of like the community piece.

 

Um, so I suppose first of all, like, how did the influencer work, um, feed into v's like own community channels, like your email events, like. Groups, things like that. 

 

Um, from sort of the power of like UGC. So again, really lucky with feed in particular that we got so much like usage on the content and they were really happy for us to repurpose it and share it on our sort of like marketing channels with like email or even on the [00:27:00] site.

 

Um, and then also just on the feed as well. And we have like muse the month. And that could be a customer, it could be a nano creator, sometimes it could be a macro greater. Um, but I think that was really key. 'cause I think what's nice is if you treat your sort of. Front page as a sort of homepage. When you click on that, it's nice to be able to see other people talking about it as well.

 

And I've always said, I, I think if someone featured the product with a sort of get ready with me and there's other brands involved, I never think it's hard. Like I think it's always a good thing to include other brands as well, because at the end of the day, we don't always use. Upon brand anymore. No, 

 

no, you've seen it.

 

You see it so much more now as well. And I think actually it'd be really transparent to us as a consumer if we saw someone and it was like. Everything is VIEVE. Yeah. And actually, like I read an article from the founder of the co-founder of Inky List, Colette. And I like live and breathe everything that she says.

 

Um, and in, in, she was going through her beauty routine and actually she had VIEVE in there. Yeah. And it was like, okay, this is great. Yeah. [00:28:00] Like, because. Like why would she use every single bit of her product? Yeah. Because her skin isn't tailored to every product Exactly. In there. So yeah, I think it's the right way to, and it's refreshing 

 

then as well.

 

And you think, okay, that's not like, whereas if you see like only every single one is that because even with paid partnerships, like I've, like even when I was at Spectrum, like years ago, I would always test that and I'd be like, you can use a couple of other bits from other brands. 'cause I think. It's just more authentic than to be like, and then now I'm going in with the same brand.

 

Mm. Just, I think consumers are so much more smarter these days than that. 

 

Yeah. But do you still think there's a lot of brands out there that wanna own that kind of like narrative and are scared to be, have their name against another name? 

 

Yeah, I do think so, because I think it's more like competitors, whereas I just think it's more.

 

Life. It's 

 

everyday life, isn't it? Yeah. Like none of us like, yeah, no. We all have like a sort of like die hard product or something. Yeah. But we don't have like, not everything can be from one brand. No, exactly. Maybe I'm wrong, but maybe I'm right. Um, [00:29:00] what do you think are the small but really high impact ways that sort of like influence work can feed into like real community growth?

 

In terms of like growing like followers or, yeah, I suppose, well, I suppose a bit of 

 

everything. I suppose like when you think about the influencer activity and what you do with the influencers, like how does that feed into, like how you grow your community? Or is it the same thing? 

 

I think it's very blurred a little bit, but.

 

As an example, there's a cra, I feel like all my examples are vi at the moment, but as a sort of, there's a girl called Ellie Thompson and she was a big customer of VIEVE and she came to our masterclasses and paid for them and came to our road show and like loved Jamie and followed Jamie for years. And then she started creating constant content constantly for us.

 

Yeah. And 

 

then she ended up being invited on our big PR trip and we had a big cinema event as well. And she came to that and I think it's showing that to. The community that that's the potential so [00:30:00] that we're not a brand that has that, you know, tight circle where we only work with like 10 inferences and that's, you'll never get gonna get there.

 

I think it's like having that, dunno the right word, but like, sort of like authenticity almost within that community, if that makes sense. Yeah. Um, because I think that then really encourages people and she did this really gorgeous post about like. You know, photo of her and Jamie from like five years before, and then photo of them at the PR trip.

 

Mm-hmm. And I think that helps grow a community because it means that they can aspire to be like that and it is achievable. 

 

Yeah. I think that's really important. Like, I had a moan about this on LinkedIn like the other week because like there's a couple of brands out there that like I actively talk about Yeah.

 

In public and obviously to my friends and I wear them and I'm not buying them all the time because I just like maybe wanna can't afford it. But then, yeah. I mean their WhatsApp, I mean their broadcast channels and all that kind of stuff. I would like read their emails. Yeah. And then all of a sudden you see this like certain group of [00:31:00] like influencers and you're kind of like, have you, you've just chosen them.

 

Yeah. Because you've just seen them work with X brands that you think, oh actually maybe we should get that person in. And it's like, it's so frustrating to see it. It kind of, you 

 

don't give up the love a little bit, but it does, it does make you dishearten you a little bit. Yeah, it does. Um, 'cause you wanna be heard and I think that's why I think like, sort of profiling the community and sharing that and then, you know, sharing the influence of content in the community as well, I think is is quite key.

 

Um, 'cause some of our best performing social posts were like the events that we would do, um, and people like really loved to see it. And again, we weren't like. The events that I would do, it'd be like from nano to macro. And I think, again, people really like to see that. 'cause they'd be like, oh my God, she used to like.

 

Be a customer and now she's like at the cinema of VIEVE and Yeah, absolutely. Um, and sometimes we would even offer it out to sort of community members, um, or like our VIEVE society members to come to the event as well. Yeah. And they're sort of [00:32:00] like on a bigger scale. 

 

Yeah. It's really nice. Makes that, I think as well.

 

'cause I can imagine that. With V like obviously as like as a beauty brand as well, you'll have like the professional makeup artists within that influencer mix as well, and like your everyday kind of like brand fans. And so they would all come together in one as like one big event. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nice. I guess I always think as well, like if a brand, like if they have that two-way dialogue and they're listening to their customers and listening to, you know, their network and stuff and like, I think they just wanna be seen and heard.

 

Yeah. And not in like that typical like cliche way of like saying, I think that saying has become a bit like. Authenticity. Sorry, I know you've just said that. No, no, no, no. I, I agree there a hundred percent. But I think it's like you have to kind of like reflect Yeah. The words back at them. Yeah. And 

 

be like, what does that mean?

 

Yeah. Yeah. 

 

And like, because that's how they really feel heard. Mm-hmm. Because they're hearing their own words back to them and they're seeing themselves reflected, and maybe not necessarily them, but like someone who represents them. Yeah. In a [00:33:00] way, I dunno if this makes any sense. No, 

 

no, no, no. Definitely.

 

And I think like being active and not replying to the comments and we had. This girl, uh, again, she was a customer, like loved the brand. She did a really great piece, great piece of content on TikTok for us, and I saw it and I was like, this is like. Great from a sort of content point of view. Um, and then we sent her some more gifting and then she did another video and then we boosted that and that was a really great spark ad.

 

And then now we gift her quite a lot and like, I mean, she's just doing content all the time. Mm-hmm. Because I think we. Invested in her, I would say. Yeah. And we saw her effort and acknowledged it. Yeah. And, and sort of showed that tent. And I think that's quite key. Yeah. Because it can come from, I, it can go from a customer and they can still drive like hundreds of thousand views on TikTok.

 

Especially TikTok, because it's not really reliant on followers. Mm. It's just good content. 

 

Yeah, that's so true. And that brings me on to like my next question. 'cause I'm just thinking like, we talk a lot about not just influencers, but like customers, like [00:34:00] creators, like kind of would, like, there's a lot of conversation about bring them in as collaborators.

 

Mm-hmm. Not just like, you know, kind of like contributors, but how, how do you actually get them to be those kind of collaborators? What are like, what have you seen as being like a really good way to engage them, to want to have that conversation with you and I don't know, kind of. Collaborate more 

 

in terms of sort of getting coverage from them as you Yes.

 

Yes. Yeah. I would say it comes down to, yeah, relationship building. Um, I think sharing an interest in their lives outside of being transactional and having those moments and check-ins that's not just, hi, did you try that product? What do you think? Like you put it on your stories. I've always, I've never been a pushy person and I used to always say that to like every founder or CEO at, I was like, I'm never gonna force on two piece of content because I promise you if you hold out for that.

 

You'll get like way more return as soon as you start pushing people and pressure them in. I think you lose relationships and then they lose the love of the brand as well. Yeah. [00:35:00] Um, dunno if that answered your question. Yeah, yeah. Perfect. I can't remember what I wrote for that one. What even right. 

 

I mean, I haven't got that on my notes, so I don't know.

 

And there, okay. We'll talk about smart guys. That's fine. Um, so sorry 

 

I've missed a few questions out. Okay. Just 'cause I'm conscious of time. 

 

No, no, no. 

 

Was there any in there that you, I didn't 

 

ask that you want to me to ask? No, I think all good. Yeah. The community feedback one. The only thing I was gonna say on that is I would ask, like, if I joined like a startup, I'd always ask employees on like their That's a good one.

 

Let's, let me ask you that one 

 

then. So if I go, yeah. Okay. And did you ever use community feedback? Let me start that again.

 

Did you ever use community feedback to help you decide which influencers to work with? 

 

No, but I think it's great to do so. So obviously there's all these sort of [00:36:00] surveys, um, that the brands I worked with will do like customer surveys, and I think that would be a really nice element to ask who do they take inspiration from and sort of see, because obviously we're in this.

 

Influence a bubble a little bit and see who we think and we follow. But I think it's important to get another perspective. But the one thing I did, and I do every time I start a new brand is I ask the employees and like the founder, um, who they would love to see. Nice. So it could be like a personal level, but I think it, especially when it comes to sort of startup beauty brands who are often the employees, often the consumer, yeah.

 

Sometimes it really opens up. Um, sort of new people who maybe I wouldn't have thought, thought would be relative to the brand and they could do really, really well. Yeah. So I think that's always really interesting. But yeah, I remember I'm always the one on Slack being like, hi, thanks for 

 

having 

 

1. What's everyone?

 

Everyone's sending their one to two they love. 

 

No, I think it's a great idea and I don't think it should be just startups. I think like, I mean, look at what's just happened with some really bad. Campaigns recently. Yeah. Like, you know, I [00:37:00] think, you know, even the big kind of disruptive challenger brands need to kind of just hone in a little bit.

 

Yeah. And just, 

 

and ask that like who are all probably their consumer as well. Mm-hmm. And love the brand and probably feel the brand more than anyone. Yeah. Um, so I think getting that perspective, because like the past on MPD formulating, I would love to know who she buys products from and who she would like die to see a brand, a product that she made on.

 

Yeah. I mean, 

 

we talk a lot like at. Uh, brand like building brand advocacy that like your employees are like your frontline advocate. Hundred percent. And there's so much now about like UGC, then 

 

EGC has become like 

 

so big. Yeah. And I think if you get it right, yeah. Like they're literally like living, breathing, walking, talking.

 

Yeah. Like, like brand people out there. Yeah. Hundred percent. So it's, um, it's nice to see that brands are kind of like starting to integrate them a little bit more into like the whole kind of like content ecosystem, but yeah. We need to see more of it. For sure. A hundred percent. Okay. I wanna like have a little bit of a talk on like trends and sort of like [00:38:00] tactical advice.

 

Okay. Um, which platforms or features are you watching closely for influencer or even like advocacy potential? Right now? Going back to my favorite affiliates, um, 

 

shop, my, I would say it's a lot bigger in the us Yeah. They've got quite a lot in the uk, but I think that. It's just, it's just an amazing piece of tech.

 

Yeah. Um, really, and then I've used sort of like lefty before, just for like tracking impressions, but I would love. Something as well to track a views, um, because I think impressions are great, but also it's nice to see he's actually watching. Yeah. Of course. The content and not every single platform does that.

 

Yeah. Um, but yeah, those are the two. 

 

Okay. I would say this might be a stupid question based on everything that you've talked about, but I'm just gonna do it anyway. Do you see affiliate programs and creator shops like TikTok, um, shop as helping or hurting authenticity? 

 

TikTok shop, I. It's a really tricky one.

 

It's worked really [00:39:00] well for some brands I've done and like from a revenue point of view, it's been huge and I feel like there's like three things you need to do, um, to be successful in terms of like revenue on, on TikTok, it's like working with star creators, going live consistently and like mass gifting to these affiliates.

 

But what I will say for that is if you have quite a strict sort of brand identity and quite. Like have harsher boundaries around the brand? I would say yes. It can be a little bit damaging just because sometimes, especially with TikTok shop, the people who sell could be brand, like, might not be relevant for the brand and might sometimes it's, it's quite, it's not controlled.

 

Yeah. 

 

Um. Yeah, that's what I'd say on that. Did 

 

you, did you find, like with TikTok shop, like the like discount becomes a bit of a barrier for brands. Like they feel like they have to go in and like heavily discount, which goes against potentially like who they are as a brand? 

 

Yeah, I think so. I think the brand that you see like great success on, they, they are heavily discounted.

 

Um, [00:40:00] which is great for that sort of quick win and if that you can retain that customer. But I think otherwise it can be brand damaging. 'cause if I'm seeing something and it's. Generating a lot of views and I've seen that from a brand awareness point of view, that you're selling this product for like half the price, then it's really gonna make a hard sell to sell that to me for full price.

 

Yeah. Um, so I think, yeah, it's difficult when you can't sort of keep up with competitor on TikTok shop where it is like a hefty discount, like flash sale. 

 

Yeah. And we've seen like nano and sort of like micro influences become such an integral part of like the whole kind of like influencer. Mm-hmm. I hate the word funnel.

 

It's not a funnel, is it? It's network. Network that mean to reword the whole influencer system these days. We can do that. Yeah, let's do that. Um, where do you think they fit into like the whole next phase of like, kind of like advocacy or like gonna say again the influencer network 

 

influencers of nano and micro.

 

Yeah. [00:41:00] I dunno. This is. But I would say like, so key. Yeah. I'm that for me, like they're. They're such an important category. I tend to just on that as well, and this is not answering your question, but I've sort of come away from like influencer strategy doing on following. Obviously I have talked about like nano micro, but for me it's more about what that person does.

 

So are they creating amazing content that you can repurpose or, or whatever is, are they a sort of sales and traffic driver or are they brand awareness and generating those like impressions or EMV or whatever you want 'em to generate? Yeah. Um. But saying that, I think from an impact point of view, where Nano Micro is great, it's just that.

 

That closeness they have to their audience because obviously with macro and there's amazing macro talent who do you know that in their dms all time. But just from their point of view, it must be like always on. If they're getting thousands of dms every day, like they can't reply. Whereas someone like with less following like a nano [00:42:00] micro level, they are more replying to.

 

So I think they all have that engagement a little bit stronger. Yeah. Um, which is why I think they, do you see more? Sort of traffic, like there is some macro cra who drive like huge traffic. But I would say in general it's better to have like a swell of the nano and micro. 

 

Yeah, of course. 

 

And it means so much to 'em as well.

 

I think when like, you know, a small trip, I'm such a pro low budget person, I don't think we need these huge budgets for events. Um, and when they get invited, I think it just like, they'll do so much more with Tam because they're like really, really appreciative. 

 

Yeah. I'm gonna like. Uh, please bear with me as I ask this question.

 

Um. In terms of like, I just wanna kind of like think about everything that we've talked about and like obviously we've talked about affiliates a lot and something that like I have a lot of friends in this space. Yeah. In the influencer space. And one concern that they always had was like, when I get to a certain level, [00:43:00] brands are gonna not want to work with me on a paid side of things because I'm too big.

 

And obviously we've just talked about like nano and micro influencers or being at that level, they're so key and we know they are. Yeah. Um, like what, I suppose what I'm trying to get to is like, is there, what does the, a typical kind of like affiliate look like? Is it the kind of affiliate, is it someone that's reached a certain level and is kind of like, I need a new revenue stream to my influencer work?

 

Does that make sense? I think, 

 

yeah. I think No, it does. So in terms of like from the influences point of view almost. Yeah. Um, with affiliates, it really, it, it like. It can really vary on following signs. So I wouldn't say it's like they hit a level and they're not impactful. Like there's some people with huge followers like Macro who have a, like an amazing sort of affiliate data behind them.

 

Yeah. Um, on the platform. But I think it, the more shocking ones is like the 40,000 person or the [00:44:00] 10,000 person and you're like looking at her link clicks and her sales. And that's a huge impact. But I think for, from an influence point of view, um. It's more, I say like you're building that relationship with their audience.

 

Maybe if they, they think that's why brands don't wanna work with them. Yeah. Or if brands are looking for more traffic, maybe doing more like Instagram stories with links, because the more data you can build for yourself, I think then you can show that to brand. And if that conversation is changing from like impressions EMV to traffic, then they're starting to build like their own traffic data themselves.

 

Yeah. Okay. 

 

That makes sense. 

 

Was that, did I answer that? Yeah, it did. 

 

You don't have to include that question scar. That was more just for my own personal understanding of where we are. If it was good, you can use it. Okay. Larry, what is one trend in the beauty, kind of like influencer culture that excites you right now?

 

Oh, so boring, but affiliate. Sorry. 

 

Honestly, I'm like, she's not influencer queen. She's [00:45:00] influ affiliate queen. I just, I think I just, I, I think. I've always worked in startup. I've always worked closely to the founder. Yeah, I really love seeing an impact. Um, and I just, it's just so exciting when you do see someone and they are like, you see a huge uplift in the, in the sales and stuff, and everyone gets excited and I just, I really, really enjoy that sign and I think it's gonna really go then I would say.

 

Yeah. And is there anything that concerned you in the space? 

 

Can I check 

 

when I wait 

 

for this? Yeah, of course you 

 

can. 

 

This, this is quite far. I dunno, isn't it actually, 

 

yeah. I've skipped a few. Only because like we've got a quick fire to do. It goes so quick, doesn't 

 

it? Doesn't 

 

it? Why? 

 

Um, where are we? So, so sorry guys.

 

Question. 15. 15, Dean.

 

Oh, okay. Yeah. Got it. Do 

 

you want me to ask again? This is 

 

not a very good answer actually, but I'll just do it.[00:46:00] 

 

Do you wanna just go in or shall I ask again? Ask again. Sorry. Okay. And is there anything that concerns you about the space? I would say it's probably 

 

a funny answer, but budgets, um. Just because I feel that we can't keep up with this con like these like huge events like that. Some do like these overnight trips and obviously it's like amazing.

 

But I think that's what concerns me a little bit is just there are so many like influencers there, and I think budget can be better spent elsewhere. Does that answer it? Not really. 

 

Yeah, because I, yeah, it does answer it, and I think. When you see influences on certain kind of like level of trips, like I even my friends, I just like have to scroll past it.

 

Yeah. 

 

I think, and I think it's going that way a little bit, I think. And they're just, it's really hard. Like me and my friends have got a bit of a sort of pool of like influence and marketers and we're like. God, have you just seen this one? Like how can we, like, how can, can we top [00:47:00] that node? Yeah. Like that's huge budget and then it makes it really hard.

 

Um, so I'm a very pro, I think it's more about the connection, the relationship building. Like I think we did so many, I've done so many for very small costs where I think it's just like, like around a table having lunch at a nice time. It doesn't have to be this like. Over the top thing. 

 

It doesn't have to be something that you like.

 

Let's take for instance, like these things that may have cost 'em a lot of money to get their like influencers there or their creators. Yeah. It doesn't necessarily have to be like this full blown like campaign that we need to see as a consumer because surely that is more about connecting with them.

 

Yeah. Getting them to understand you as a brand and the brand. Understanding them as a creator. Mm-hmm. Rather than it for us. Yeah. For consumer. Consumer. Yeah. Consumption. Yeah. Like, because that is not gonna turn me on at all. No, a hundred percent. So you're right. Like just those lunches, those dinners. Yeah.

 

Like intimate. Just having those conversations that doesn't necessarily need to be for 

 

Yeah. I think at the end of the day, like what you want, like what the [00:48:00] goal is. You want them to love the product. Like that is like, I, like they can do a story of their unboxing, the mailer. That might tick a box from an EMV point of view.

 

So I'm like, great. Yeah, they covered it. But I like, for me, I'd rather see them being like, guys, you need to try this splash guys. You need to try this college. Like I've seen an impact. That is what, 'cause I'm a abusing team as well. That's what I wanna see. I don't wanna necessarily see like one story, it's got 10 and boxings in because if you're just gonna go past it.

 

Yeah. I think it's about really landing that like content that that lands with the the consumer. 

 

Yeah. And I have to ask, what do you think most brands get wrong when it comes to brand advocacy? I've put you on the spot. What? Sorry? 

 

Can you say that the question again? What do I think brands get wrong? Yeah.

 

When it comes to brand advocacy, 

 

you don't have to answer 

 

1. Maybe trying to do too much. I think trying to do it all. Trying to like. I think it's like [00:49:00] slowly building in the database. Obviously. I know I said at the beginning that we grew the database and I think that's important. Um, but sometimes. You can send out way too many samples.

 

I think you don't have to be sending out thousand samples for every product drop. 

 

Yeah. 

 

Um, it's more about, I'd rather send, you know, 300, 400, whatever, 200 even to a group of people who love the brand and they're excited by it than just sending for sake of it. Yeah. Especially where, I mean, I've always like, for my budget, I'm always like cogs and postages everything.

 

So I think that's something. Mm. I would say, 

 

yeah. Great. I'm actually wearing VIEVE mascara on Blusher today. Oh, stunning. Oh, and the uh, skin Nova. I 

 

love that one. Oh my God. So good. God, it's so good. It's so good. No, the products are great. Yeah. Anyway, Larry, this 

 

has been great. Thank you so much. Thank you so much.

 

Um, where can people find you if they wanna gain touch? 

 

Um, so I'm on LinkedIn, Larry Evans know I. That is my thing. Um, and I kind of post a lot of whack on Instagram and Lao Evans [00:50:00] on Instagram. If you wanna follow me there, we'll put it all in the show notes. 

 

Yay. Thank you so much. Thank you.