What does a decade of building Brand Advocacy look like in practice?

Back in May, Paul sat down with Luke Klein (Senior Director of Marketing Strategy & Growth @ Aerie) to unpack one of fashion’s longest-running movements: #AerieREAL.

The campaign started in 2014 with a bold commitment: no more retouching. But it was more than a moment; it was a cultural stance. In the 10 years since, Aerie has evolved that stance into a living, breathing ‘brandformance’ strategy that continues to drive relevance & results.

Luke shares how Aerie stays intuitive to their customer (not just reactive), balances brand consistency with performance-first cultural agility, and designs a creator strategy that feels genuinely co-owned. 

If you’re looking for smart ways to evolve a brand, this episode is yours.

You’ll learn:

• Why Brands Need a Mirror, Not a Magnet – Aerie doesn’t try to manufacture hype. They reflect real conversations their customers are already having; and that’s what earns trust.
• The Bow Tie vs The Funnel – A customer journey model that actually reflects how people buy and Advocate today.
• Why Brand Is Performance (& Vice Versa) – Luke shares why separating the two is outdated, and how Aerie uses one strategy to drive both impact and immediacy.
• How Culture-Driven Content Fuels Strategy – From “Coastal Grandma” to subculture playbooks, Luke breaks down how Aerie turns social listening into scalable strategy.
• Why Influencers Should Translate, Not Recite – Scripts are dead. Aerie’s creator strategy starts with values, then lets partners lead with their own voice.
• The Underrated Power of Store Associates – When you empower employees to show up authentically, they become some of your best Advocates.

Whether you’re brand-side, agency-side, or founder-led – if you’re serious about scaling with Advocacy, this is one way to do it. 

Chapters:

00:00 – Why #AerieREAL Was Never Just a Campaign
02:50 – Evolving the Movement for Gen Z in 2025
08:45 – How Aerie Turns Listening Into Strategy
10:30 – From SEO to Trend Spotting: The Content Nucleus Model
13:00 – Subcultures, Micro-Trends & Translating the Brand
14:00 – Scripts Are Dead: Let Creators Lead With Values
21:00 – Why Brand and Performance Aren’t Separate Anymore
23:00 – The Bow Tie vs The Funnel (and What Actually Works)
26:00 – Segmenting Advocates Beyond Purchase Frequency
30:00 – Store Associates as Advocates: The Untapped Channel
34:00 – The Myth of Message Matching Across Touchpoints
36:30 – Letting the Customer Shape the Brand, Not Just Receive It

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Luke Klein [00:00:00]:

You can have someone that only buys one time a year, but they are your brand's biggest fan and they're out there telling everyone about your brand. What we really are focused on is making sure that we create opportunities for people that love the brand, want to be a part of. The brand may not purchase as often because, hey, maybe they're financially constrained or don't have as many purchase occasions, but we still want to give them an opportunity to feel close to the brand and advocate on our behalf.

 

Intro [00:00:39]:

Have you ever wondered why some brands grow exponentially, building legions of passionate fans that live and die by their logos? And some, well, don't. I do all the time, and that's probably because I'm a massive brand nerd. But I believe there's a secret sauce at the core of every remarkable brand. A formula that sparks the growth of passionate communities, of superfans, building a business and a reputation that will last for years to come. My name is Paul Archer and I'm a specialist in brand advocacy and word of mouth, having consulted for hundreds of brands on a topic. Hey, it's Verity here, your co host of the Building Brand Advocacy podcast. In this podcast, we tap into the greatest marketing minds in the world. They share the exact tactics and strategies used to build the world's greatest practise brands, dropping actionable insights every brand builder can apply.

 

Intro [00:01:28]:

We've got some incredible guests coming up.

 

Intro [00:01:30]:

Sharing insights and tips that can truly shift the marketing landscape. If you want to be the first.

 

Intro [00:01:35]:

To hear, make sure you hit that follow button.

 

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The more people following the show, the bigger and better we can make it. So if you're loving what you hear, don't forget to follow and spread the word. Thanks again for listening.

 

Intro [00:01:47]:

It really means a lot.

 

Intro [00:01:49]:

I hope you enjoy this next episode. It's time to learn and Build Brand Advocacy. Hello, welcome back to Building Brand Advocacy. I'm your host, Paul Archer and today I am joined by the incredible Luke Klein. Luke, welcome.

 

Luke Klein [00:02:03]:

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

 

Paul Archer [00:02:05]:

So, for anyone who doesn't know you, please, I'd love to hear a little bit about who you are, what you do, and also the brand you work at because. And a little bit of context to that too.

 

Luke Klein [00:02:16]:

I lead the marketing strategy and growth team for Aerie. You know, probably many people have heard of Aerie, but we are a women's casual wear and intimates brand underneath the American Eagle Outfitters house of brands. The brand has been around for 20 plus years, but really came into fame when we launched the aerie Real Movement 11 years ago.

 

Paul Archer [00:02:43]:

Now, so tell us about Arriral. So it's an amazing, amazing campaign and it's amazing that it's still running now. So what was the background to that and how does that show up today?

 

Luke Klein [00:02:54]:

Yeah, you know, and it's funny because people refer to Arriral as a campaign, but it was never intended to be that, you know, like, and I wasn't with the team whenever, you know, they launched Aerie Real. But really what the team saw was an opportunity to do something right for the world. And it was at a time when there was a lot of external pressure to change the way you look and the customer was really feeling not great about themselves, not confident in themselves because of what was going on in the external environment. So the team really took a stand. Started with just a broad declaration that we weren't going to retouch models because we wanted to show women genuine, authentic reflection of themselves. And it's just built from there. So I think that one of the amazing things is what inspired the movement and that's what we call it, like the Arie Real movement is that our president at the time, her daughter was young, not even a teenager, and she came to her and said, she asked her the question, mom, am I beautiful? And for a mother and I myself am a parent to a three and a half year old. Just to have your kid asking you that, that question, I think you then take the step back and look around and say like there's something wrong in the world if people aren't seeing themselves in the world around them.

 

Luke Klein [00:04:23]:

So that's really what inspired the movement.

 

Paul Archer [00:04:25]:

That's amazing. And so 2014 was the sort of era that came out like that was the very first era of user generated content. People were like, oh, we kind of want realness. But yeah, just even looking back to we're not touching up images, it sort of speaks to this sort of phase there. And then actually today how does that show up? Because we've, we've almost come full circle now. We're all, maybe even we've got much, much deeper into to where we are. You know, that, that, that little girl was now a 20 something year old, very much bang in the middle of Gen Z. And so how does, how does that show up for you guys? And how do you, have you evolved that you had to evolve it or is it just as current today as it is then?

 

Luke Klein [00:05:05]:

Yeah, you know, and I think a lot of this is really our team uses as much, I would say insight and data as we do intuition to make sure that the brand stays ahead of the cultural curve. So if you think about 10 years ago and where the pressure that women were feeling to change who they were were coming from, it was supermodels and it was magazine spreads. Social media existed, but it wasn't what it is today. And as we've looked around, people still feel less confident in who they are. But the pressure where that comes from has shifted. We're all bombarded every day by tonnes of content and caught doom scrolling in our feeds. So we've maintained the mission because a mission to empower confidence in the world is lofty and it's something that you never can truly achieve. But we've evolved the way that we tackle that mission as the customer has evolved where they're showing up.

 

Luke Klein [00:06:12]:

So I think a lot of that is expanding beyond just like, hey, it's about no retouching of models to really making sure that we're showing up as a genuine, authentic reflection of our customers lives more broadly. I think that we've all gotten caught in that trap of okay, I see that one of my friends is travelling to all these glamorous places because they're bombarding me in social media. I call that vacation trapping. And that's not reality. So we want our customer to ultimately see you don't have to make your life a fantasy. Life is life and that is a beautiful thing and we want them to embrace that.

 

Paul Archer [00:06:55]:

Not to get too tactical here, but like, are you, are you getting insights here that are bringing that to life? Like, are you running sort of shooting from your hip here because you've known it's worked for the brand previously? Or are you hearing things? Are you bringing data to the fore that's supporting this? Because yeah, it's, it's, you know, a lot of people always want to keep things fresh, a mindset and a movement that's been going for 10 years, 11 years, whatever it is. Like often you're like, okay, well we've got to be fresh, we've got to do the new thing. But actually sticking with it, it's actually in many ways a braver move. So I'd love to know if you had anything that could kind of reinforce that decision.

 

Luke Klein [00:07:30]:

Yeah, I mean, and I think that you kind of see it all over the place, the potential dangers of social media on, I would say young women's confidence, but on all people's confidence holistically. So I think that we have lots of data that has reinforced our intuition, but it's sort of been a natural evolution as the world has changed that our brand has gone with it. So I would say, yes, data, but it wasn't like, hey, we're going to put a line in the sand and we did this research and now we're going to shift. I do think that that's where the intuition of the people that are a part of the brand, all of us really, I say we all drink the Kool Aid and, and like we all truly believe and are passionate about this idea that we can change the world just by helping people to feel more confident in who they are and really letting the marketing evolve with the customer.

 

Paul Archer [00:08:29]:

That makes sense. And are you finding, what are you finding as you use for insights and actually how is that affecting the strategy now? But outside of this quite clear umbrella movement that sits across everything, when you go to more of a granular level, how are you using insights to drive the strategy?

 

Luke Klein [00:08:46]:

We look for insight everywhere. You know, we, we deeply listen to the customer. The social environment I think is probably the most important place to be dialled into the conversation, hear what they're saying about the brand, hear what they're saying about other brands, you know, and I think we're definitely not a team that just listens to insight and doesn't act on it. Like, we've set up a lot of very agile processes that allow us to like, hear what the customer is saying, thinking, voting for, and then pretty rap rapidly evolving content to make sure that even in the moment we're relevant to them. Obviously that's more of, maybe more of a short term engagement and sales objective that we're trying to deliver against, but it allows us to be agile, top of mind of the moment, without changing fundamentally what the brand stands for. And that's sort of the balance, right? Branding is all about consistency. The customer has to know what they can expect from you and whether it's in the product or what the brand stands for. So that's something that we don't massively evolve on a really quick basis.

 

Luke Klein [00:09:57]:

But the things that you're saying that help to support that idea are what we can react to much faster. We've actually created a really unique role in the team that we basically took our SEO arm and evolved that to be more focused on broad content strategy and analytics. So, you know, the guy that leads that team has his ear to the ground across all of the social platforms, listening to what the customer is saying, looking for ideas that are trending. And then we think about content as the nucleus of our strategies. So when we start to see things that are trending that we can, through a brand, deliver against. So I'll give the example that I think it was a year and a half or two years ago, there was a fashion trend called Coastal Grandma that popped out out of nowhere. And everyone's like, what the. You know, what the hell is that? But he actually saw that that trend starting to bubble up really rapidly in TikTok.

 

Luke Klein [00:11:00]:

We identified it, we brought it into kind of like a content nucleus, and we were activating against that trend through our creator partners. We'd created a shop on the site, you know, like we were activating it through it in Owned. So we were able to really rapidly say, we know the customer is interested in this. It's something that we as a brand can offer from an aesthetic point of view. And then we activate it against it probably over the course of two to three weeks. So it's that type of thing that we're using to really make sure that we're top of mind and relevant as trends happen. Instead of traditional marketing was like, hey, I have this thing. I'm going to architect a campaign, I'm going to launch it, set it and forget it.

 

Luke Klein [00:11:41]:

It's just not how marketing works anymore because the customer's context changes so rapidly every day.

 

Paul Archer [00:11:48]:

That's amazing. Like, moving out massive kind of campaigns and activations like that over a matter of weeks is huge, particularly for a brand that's been around for a while. But do you think that the landscape has changed with fast fashion? With social? Actually, that could be. Is that still a trend or how long does that trend last for? You've got a movie. We're talking about days, even hours at this sort of stage. Where do you think that that's going to go?

 

Luke Klein [00:12:11]:

I don't. So a lot of those types of trends are pretty fleeting. I think that was one that lasted for a couple of months. It was more of like a seasonal wear occasion and then it was gone. So, you know, I don't know that. And we don't consider ourselves a fast fashion retailer. You know, we offer quality products. We're really focused on making sure that we're not, like, too, quote, trendy in that, Steve.

 

Luke Klein [00:12:39]:

Just like, this is something I can wear one time, but it's really about registering what you offer and translating it to the customer in a way that's relevant. We have amazing, versatile basics that could be used to outfit into the Coastal Grandma trend. So it's all about positioning your brand in the right moments for the right people. And, you know, that sounds like something that's Easy to do. But I think that one of the biggest things that marketers are facing is that, like, there is no longer one pervasive culture. It's all about subcultures. So, like, you have to figure out ways to make your brand consistent and translate that into every nook and cranny of the Internet to be able to reach people and deepen relevance. And, you know, that's something that has, I think, really dramatically shifted over the past couple of years and something that we're really taking on as a big portion of our marketing strategy.

 

Paul Archer [00:13:40]:

In what way?

 

Luke Klein [00:13:41]:

Like.

 

Paul Archer [00:13:41]:

Like, to. To. To get specific. Like, how is that actually showing up?

 

Luke Klein [00:13:45]:

I mean, I think that I would almost say, like, fundamentally, and. And I'll speak maybe more directly to influencers and how we engage with influencers. I think in the past, you would say, okay, like, hey, I'm going to engage these influencers. Here's the product I want you to talk about, and here's the way I want you to talk about it. And it's like, okay, so this is a brand partnering with somebody because they're an advocate, and they have people that come to them for a specific reason, and now forcing a message on that audience. Like, I think when you take a step back and think about it, it's like, why were we doing that to begin with? So we've really shifted the way that we work with influencers and creators to, like, here's the key mess about the brand that we want, you know, delivered. Like, this is what we stand for. And I actually think that we think a little bit more about our casting strategy and how we deliver that key message.

 

Luke Klein [00:14:39]:

You know, like, do these people authentically represent themselves? Do they stand for real? You know, is it something that is just inherent to who they are as a person? And then we really let our partners translate the brand for their audience in the way that they would, you know, like, see fit for themselves. And I think that that's, like, just a really different way of thinking about branding. You know, like, you have to fundamentally stand for something as a brand to be able to do that. And maybe that's where some brands struggle. Like, they don't start with a why. They start with, like, we have product. Here's what we want to sell. But at the end of the day, marketing isn't just all about selling.

 

Luke Klein [00:15:17]:

It's about entertaining and creating engagement. So I think it's a little bit of just like, retooling. The way you think about marketing and the way you think about brand as it relates to marketing.

 

Paul Archer [00:15:27]:

Yes, isn't it? It's all about creating the relationship, the engagement that a human has with an organisation. And actually you were saying about that kind of, why did we do that in the first place? I have a theory on this. I think back pre social, there were two kinds of ambassadors. You had the sports star who would win races and win games using your product or wearing your product. And then you had like the other ambassador which typically was like an actor or an actress who would play the character. So George Clooney was like, I love Nespresso. And everyone knows George Clooney doesn't really drink Nespresso, that he just, he's an actor, he acts into that. And so when we then like, okay, we now have all these influencers, we want them to do it and we need 10 of them to it.

 

Paul Archer [00:16:11]:

It's just like, all right, well, let's write a script, let's do it the same way we did it with the previous one. So I think we're only just getting free of that in the, in the, in the best practise. And so, yeah, more power to you and everyone who's broken free sooner.

 

Luke Klein [00:16:26]:

I really, I really firmly believe in the idea that if you're going to work with someone, you know, like in whatever, like a celebrity talent, even a nano influencer, and you have to tell them what to say about your brand, they're probably not a great fit, you know, because I think that especially today's customer, like, they see through it. They know that, like, hey, there's this famous actor, you probably paid them a lot to be a part of your brand and you're telling them what to say, like that's not genuine advocacy. And you know, I think as a brand we're really fortunate that because we stand for something meaningful, that when we do work with, you know, larger tier talent, it's those people that believe in the brand's mission and have heard of the brand for what we stand for. So again, I think it's, it's starting with like, if you have a brand that has a powerful why, then the rest will come. If you don't, then it makes it much harder to have genuine advocacy around the brand.

 

Paul Archer [00:17:28]:

Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree on that. And I think there's a conversation we said with a few folks which is, I will, what can you do if you've got a brand which doesn't have a clear why and they feel that they're lost. And if you're a founder, then you, you, you have the control to try and change that brand, but most people aren't. Most people work for those brands. I, I don't have a good answer. My answer is probably find a brand, find another job for a brand that does. Because actually you'll always be slightly lost and you'll always be pushing these. I just, I don't think that.

 

Paul Archer [00:18:00]:

So I think it was okay, yeah, 10, 20 years ago to have a brand that didn't have a why. But I think as we've just become so aggressively reliant on social media, the brands have been personified and they have to have a voice because they couldn't have a voice previously, because they couldn't. There was no way of doing it. There's no direct to consumer channels, it was sold through retailers. You maybe buy an advert, but that was about the extent of it. But now you are hyper connected to everyone. Suddenly brands are personified and because they're personified, they're expected to have a voice and a person and just like a human, they're expected to stand for something. And when they don't, those are the brands that probably won't be around for very long because it's infinitely harder to market against a brand that has a really true why.

 

Paul Archer [00:18:42]:

So it's really fascinating and I do.

 

Luke Klein [00:18:45]:

Think that, you know, no matter what industry, no matter what brand, every consumer, like everywhere out there, there is a true, deep, emotional, unmet need. You know, I used to work, I was in CPG previously in the paint industry. So, you know, like, and we had a why. So, you know, I think that it's really, I love saying that consumer insight isn't just about, you know, research on a piece of paper. It's deeply understanding the customer and reading between the lines to find that like the thing that they're not actually telling you and, you know, like finding that thing to really centre your brand on. So obviously, you know, it takes people in a certain position to maybe influence all of that, but I think any marketer at any level can think that way and bubble up those ideas. Yeah.

 

Paul Archer [00:19:37]:

And I'd be fascinated to know about actually how that kind of showed up as well. Like building brand into pain and having a meaning for that. Like how did, how, how did you show up for that and then how did you act as a marketer with.

 

Luke Klein [00:19:49]:

That in, in paint? Yeah, yeah. So I can give a little bit of an example. You know, I was the brand lead for a legacy paint brand that sort of had a value position in the market. And, you know, we were really focused on Winning sort of a younger consumer, like revitalising the brand, having a fresher face, winning a younger consumer. And the insight was really focused on the fact that the industry as a whole was super complex. All this over promise, making you feel like if you were going to do this, you're going to change your life. And so we got really honest with the customer and just kind of said, hey, you know, some people just like want to get the, want to get it done and we're going to be the brand that's like honest and authentic. It's funny.

 

Luke Klein [00:20:46]:

Like I've worked for like two back to back brands focused on honest and authenticity. But you know, it, it solved a pain point that like some people just don't really care that much and it's okay. Like, and so we're going to make it really straightforward to do the project, get it done with and like move on with your life.

 

Paul Archer [00:21:03]:

That's amazing. There's, there's a British brand called Ron Seal which says, does exactly what it says on the tin. I don't know if that's a, an international brand now I think about it, but it's just like that's what you want to do, what it says. That's. And funnily enough that's a, that's a, that shouldn't be a usp, but it is. How are you sort of seeing kind of with the way the brands are evolving, being personified. One of the biggest trends that I, and we, and Verity and I are seeing across the brands that we work with, across people who are on the show, like is this confusion as to what is performance and what is brand and they are starting to cross over into each other's worlds and they. No one quite knows how it works.

 

Paul Archer [00:21:44]:

So like, are you seeing this? What's your read on it?

 

Luke Klein [00:21:47]:

Yeah, and I think that's something. So within my team, I lead our brand marketing strategy. Lead and then our performance marketing and the plans that come out of that. And I think that one of the things that I always say is, you know, like in the past I think people would say, oh, it's growth, it's performance marketing. And then brand is sort of this like ethereal fun thing that we do over here. And I think that for me all marketing is brand marketing and all marketing is performance marketing. You know, like at the end of the day it's the customer seeing something or engaging with your brand across different touch points. They don't know if it's brand marketing or performance marketing.

 

Luke Klein [00:22:30]:

I think that the way that we think about it is, you know, like the two worlds cross over. But let's get really clear on what is the ultimate objective of these different activities that we do and what do we ultimately need the customer to walk away away with? You know, is it something that is focused on building something for the long term, for the short term? And I think there's also a recognition that like performance marketing, you know, with like, let's say a conversion focused goal can reach somebody the first time they've ever experienced a brand drive a sale. And then you can tell them more about the brand once they've purchased. You know, I think if I could erase like whoever came up with the funnel was just like, didn't understand marketing because, because it's not a linear journey. Like, people don't have to like see an emotional message from a brand and then be told something else and then they might buy. Like it's such an outdated notion. So it's, it's kind of something with my team, like we've replaced funnels with bubbles, you know, and like it's a bow tie. It's not like a funnel at all.

 

Luke Klein [00:23:42]:

So I, I do think that, you know, for me it's, it's about really focusing on the clarity of like, what do we expect to get from this? We think customer first. What is this ultimately intended to do, who's intended to reach and what's the outcome? And we have a holistic growth strategy that thinks about today and tomorrow and that's how we sort of position quote brand and performance as a part of the total ecosystem.

 

Paul Archer [00:24:12]:

Tell me about the bow tie.

 

Luke Klein [00:24:15]:

Well, I would say we look at it as like bubbles on one side and then a bow tie on the other. So it's. I don't know what shape we'd call that, but it's really helping us to think about, you know, like there are obviously going to be customers that don't know our brand and that could be, you know, like future fans of the brand. But we have to make sure that we're introducing them, getting in front of them, helping them to understand more. I think about that, like, okay, in two to three years, who's our customer going to be? Let's make sure that we're starting to at least like get some familiarity. And then we'll say as we get closer in on one side of the bow tie, it's like, well, who are the customers that are gonna, that we wanna win, that are gonna deliver the highest value to the brand today? So I guess on the other side of the bow tie, we think about like, what is the customer's current relationship with the brand? What do they need to know to strengthen that relationship? Like, you know, do they, do we want them to know more about the heart of the brand, the products that we offer, and then just kind of think about like, okay, and then somebody becomes an advocate of your brand. So it's, it's really like a virtuous loop. It all connects together.

 

Luke Klein [00:25:26]:

But that's the left and the right side of our bow tie.

 

Paul Archer [00:25:29]:

Do you have any specific segments that are quite unusual that kind of go counter to the funnel? You know, CRM. Typically we are scoring people based on their value, how much they spend, those kind of very high level ones. But as you said, that doesn't necessarily show where they connect. Do you have any things that are a bit left field that you could advise people to do that they can start looking at segmenting in an alternative way?

 

Luke Klein [00:25:53]:

Yeah, and I think that a customer's relationship with a brand is not just how often they buy, because you can have someone that only buys one time a year, but they are your brand's biggest fan and they're out there telling everyone about your brand. So I think it's what we really are focused on is making sure that we create opportunities for people that love the brand, want to be a part of the brand, may not purchase as often because, hey, maybe they're financially constrained or don't have as many purchase occasions, but we still want them. We want to give them an opportunity to feel close to the brand and advocate on our behalf. So I think that that's some of like the nuance when you look at like a traditional CRM segmentation that's all about like, hey, this customer buys five times a year. They're your biggest advocate. Well, we also have a lot of, you know, like parent purchasers. So like someone's mom could be buying from the brand five times a year. We don't necessarily like need them to be an advocate for the brand.

 

Luke Klein [00:26:57]:

Or maybe, you know, like they're not out there telling people, but a kid who's buying one time a year for themselves loves us the most. So I do think it's like really understanding more nuance about your customer base than just like, like, how often are they buying from you?

 

Paul Archer [00:27:11]:

Yeah, I love that there are all the other proxies as well. Like you know, the person that opens all your emails but doesn't spend very much. What does that mean? Have you found any like really small little moves you've Made that have had like an outsized impact in a similar way.

 

Luke Klein [00:27:28]:

Yeah. You know, and I think this is maybe a little bit of a random example but we run a couple times a year Abrah trading event really like gives the customer the opportunity to come in and you know, like trade out of a bra, hopefully from a competitor of ours. Like experience the comfort of the brand and you know, ultimately become an advocate of the brand. And it's been a very successful thing for us. Like you know, there's purpose LinkedIn to it. We donate all those bras to a charity. But this past year we kind of took the step back and said well why would somebody want to trade something in? And it was really just a slight nuance of saying what is our customer doing? When is the time where they might be most engaged in this type of idea? And we truly shifted the campaign by a matter of weeks and saw double the result. So it wasn't like hey, we have to go and spend so much more to maximise this idea.

 

Luke Klein [00:28:32]:

It was just like hey, like we're going to really think about the customer, think about what they're doing, what their life looks like and make a small change for a really big impact.

 

Paul Archer [00:28:42]:

Awesome. How many of your customers do you think are creators? And like how are you showing up for that shift? Because a younger demographic, a lot more creators there, crossover with your customer base. How are you actually able to drive advocacy in that authentic way?

 

Luke Klein [00:29:00]:

Yeah, I think that a lot of our customers, I mean we're a little bit unique as a brand in that we span a pretty broad age demographic. I think the brand's offering focused in comfort is sort of a universally appealing idea for many women. But I think that we in the past have naturally seen that the customer wants to talk a lot about the brand. We also have a fleet of 400 plus stores and all of the people that work in those stores are customers of the brand and fans of the brand. So we actually see a lot of store associates just like going out and talking about us and posting about us as well. So you know, and it's something that I would say whenever we launched Arriral or introduced the Idea of Arireal 10 years ago, people just started to talk about the brand and that's been a big part of our legacy. Like we always say that the brand is a mirror, not a magnet. Like we are a mirror of our customers lives because we have always been focused on lifting up the conversations about the brand and making that what the brand stands for, not like us creating a story and pushing it down on people.

 

Luke Klein [00:30:16]:

And I think that our customers have naturally gravitated toward that and then turn around and want to talk about the brand. So I don't know that we have any hard stats like, hey, 50% of our customers are creators, but I think many of them are. I mean, we are all creators if we're posting to our own Instagram grid.

 

Paul Archer [00:30:34]:

This is true we're creating right now, right?

 

Luke Klein [00:30:36]:

Yes, exactly. Yeah.

 

Paul Archer [00:30:39]:

And I think the store associates is always such a big opportunity, but I've not seen it done super well. I think Macy's were the first, were the really innovative ones in terms of online lululemon, were the OGs at really activating the educators and sort of bring that. Like, how do you approach that I'm really interested in specifically, like, how do you onboard and train a store associate to talk the right brand language and be that front, front facing person for the brand?

 

Luke Klein [00:31:16]:

Yeah, I mean, I think transparently it's not something that we have fully figured out or unlocked that opportunity. But I think sort of back to what we initially talked about, you know, like, it's not always about delivering the quote right brand message. It's about translating the brand for your life. So there, there might be a little bit less brand control in that space, but it is still someone like advocating for your brands. You know, like, I think about this notion that, like, if I go out and tell my friend about this brand that I just bought or like this product that I love, like a brand isn't controlling what I'm saying. You know, I am saying from my own voice why I love this thing. And that's sort of like what you ultimately want to have happen, you know, Like, I think that people much more authentically trust a recommendation from someone that is or feels like a friend than like some big influencers. So I don't know how important controlling the narrative in that kind of space really is.

 

Paul Archer [00:32:20]:

It's just like these basic things. If you're trying to create advocacy, people have to at the very least love your and use your products all day long. It's like day one, like the first, first thing they should have because how on earth are you supposed to get them to talk about it to customers if they don't even have it themselves?

 

Luke Klein [00:32:35]:

Yeah, yeah, it is, it's. It's a funny anecdote because I was, I mean, I personally am not someone that wears aerie, but my team all does. And it is something. It's nice to be able to look around and be like, okay, like these people are all customers of the brand. They're styling the product different. They were probably motivated to buy the product in a different, like from a different lens. So it's almost like an easy way to take a step back and say, like, there is no one size fits all for every customer, because humans are humans. And so like, how do we adapt to that idea? In the modern world of marketing, what.

 

Paul Archer [00:33:12]:

Do you think the most brands get wrong about driving brand engagement and love and advocacy?

 

Luke Klein [00:33:19]:

I do think that one of my. I have a lot of isms, but one of my isms is that the luggage does not need to match to be successful at branding and marketing. You don't have to have one message that you're pushing across every single touch point to every channel, to every customer. It is back to like being grounded in that. Why? And then translating the brand in different ways to different people. And I think that is something that is going to unlock future success for brands. This sort of notion that our product fits into every one of our customers lives in a different way makes them feel confident in a different way, but at the end of the day it makes them feel more confident. That's what we always come back to.

 

Paul Archer [00:34:05]:

Yeah, I love that ism. That's a strong one there. Monoculture doesn't exist anymore. Right. And it's getting every single day more and more fragmented into these micro communities. And so obviously there's never going to be one message either. And what I love about that, like, and where it's heading is like that complete decentralisation of it is like brands can bear. I see a world that the brands of the future almost have no brand themselves.

 

Paul Archer [00:34:32]:

It's just whoever, whatever a person's talking about it. And these thousands and thousands of different advocates telling a different story to their own micro culture that they have as their audience base. So I'm fascinated to see that, seen a bit of that kind of come through because it's impossible for a brand to control that narrative anyway. And so therefore fully giving permission out there is the. Is the easier way.

 

Luke Klein [00:34:57]:

Yeah, yeah, well, and it's kind of like, you know, because branding is about consistency and trust and I think it's like establishing, okay, what are those things that represent your brand? And then making the customer out of those things and then the customer ultimately informs what the brand is and what the brand does as it evolves. So I do think that that's an important notion. Ultimately people use brands to organise the world around themselves and you can't be a brand that is going to be relevant to everyone. So I think it is having that really foundational bedrock, but then really like using the customer to help to mirror and evolve your brand over time.

 

Paul Archer [00:35:43]:

Do you think that's why the why becomes even more important today?

 

Luke Klein [00:35:47]:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, especially in a world where, you know, like, we always kind of say, like, anyone with a sewing machine can become an apparel brand. Like, there are so many new brands that pop up every single day that might make amazing products. But, you know, like, the this space especially is so, so competitive. So you can all, you know, you always need to have something that is bigger than just the product you make. And obviously product in this category is absolutely critical. Like, I don't want to discount that if you don't have great product, like, you're never going to win with the customer.

 

Luke Klein [00:36:22]:

But it does have to root back to something that kind of ties the product and the creative and the experience altogether.

 

Paul Archer [00:36:30]:

Luke, this has been incredible. So where can people find you if they want to get in touch and have a chat?

 

Luke Klein [00:36:38]:

Probably Instagram at Luke. That's an easy one. L E W k or on LinkedIn. Luke Klein on LinkedIn.

 

Paul Archer [00:36:48]:

Amazing. Luke, thank you so much for spending the time.

 

Luke Klein [00:36:51]:

Yeah, thank you.

 

Paul Archer [00:36:54]:

That was another episode of Building Brand Advocacy, the world's top brand building podcast. To find out more about Building Brand Advocacy and how this podcast is part of a bigger plan for our brand building cookbook, then make sure to search for Building Brand Advocacy in Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or anywhere else that podcasts are fine. And make sure that you click subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes. Thanks to Duel for sponsoring. To find out more, go to www.dual.tech. that's D U E L dot T E C H. And on behalf of the team here at Building Brand Advocacy, thanks for listening.