Even the biggest brands can’t do what they do without some help from advocates and influencers. In fact, companies like Inkbox, MAC, and Calvin Klein rely on them. Your goal as a brand builder should be for customers to celebrate and champion your brand – telling everyone how much they love you, to the point where it’s annoying. Once you’ve done that, you’ve reached the pinnacle of impactful marketing and branding. 

Join us in this episode of Building Brand Advocacy, where Paul speaks with Woozae Kim, a disruptive brand builder & storyteller who has made waves in the brand advocacy space. Previously, he was the Chief Marketing Officer at Inkbox; Senior Vice President of Global Brand Marketing at Calvin Klein; Vice President of Global Consumer Marketing & Artist Relations at MAC; and the Director of Strategic Marketing & Brand Integration at Virgin Mobile USA.

Together, they delve into how Inkbox managed to reposition and shift the customer’s mindset; how to build a marketing strategy around word-of-mouth; why brand advocacy is one of the guiding philosophies for Woozae’s marketing career; and whether or not you need to control the brand narrative.

Building Brand Advocacy 038: Woozae Kim, Disruptive Brand Builder & Storyteller

Woozae: Ultimately, as a marketer, as a brand builder, my job is to build brand love. Right. You want your customers to be fanatic by you. You want them constantly being, to celebrate you and champion you. And that becomes your word of mouth. And that is a marketing vehicle on its own. Right? 

Paul: Have you ever wondered why some brands grow exponentially, building legions of passionate fans that live and die by their logos? And some, well, don't. I do, all the time. And that's probably because I'm a massive brand nerd. I believe that there's a secret source at the core of every remarkable brand, a formula that sparks the growth of passionate communities of fans. And in this podcast, we're on a mission to uncover the first principles that any brand can apply to unlock that potential. This includes principles of brand building in a hyper-connected world, maintaining authenticity and coordinating communities of advocates and fans to drive passion, awareness, community, and commerce. My name is Paul Archer, and I'm a specialist in brand advocacy. I've consulted for hundreds of brands on the topic. And in this podcast, I interview the greatest brand building minds and share my own learnings along with those of the incredible team of experts that I work with. We'll be translating the tactics, strategies, and actionable insights for brand builders to exacerbate their brand success. It's time to build brand advocacy. Hello, welcome back to Building Brand Advocacy. My name is Paul Archer and I'm incredibly stoked to be here with Woozae Kim. Now, Woozae has an incredible CV working with some of the biggest brands in the world, but also some of the most cutting edge innovative brands as well. Woozae, until recently, you were just at Inkbox, an amazing brand who's really pushing the boundaries for something which, for me, is a very nostalgic product. This idea of temporary tattoos, but you somehow managed to make it cool and make it current for Gen Z. Depending on which side of the Atlantic you are. How about, did you start that project, that mindset? 

Woozae: Yeah, I mean, I came on, obviously, after his launch. So there was already a lot of work done before I got there. But for me, it was about like, repositioning what people think about when they think about semi permanent tattoos, right? So it was like, you kind of mentioned nostalgia, that's sort of our generation, but for Gen Z and millennials, it's really a kind of a new concept for them. So they're known at like negative packages. And also for us, that audience that we think about where they are in their life development, they're constantly experimenting. They're fluids, like changing who they are, pursuing their identity every day. And so for us, we were like almost a natural attachment to their lifestyle because we were giving them a tool and a platform to express a different side of themselves every two weeks because the tattoos last only two weeks. So you can constantly go to different personas who you are and make different statements. So it was an amazing connection to who they are again, in their growth. And so I tried to position, I was trying to position Inkbox as really a fashion and beauty accessory. So just as you know, that that group or people would change out their hair color or play with their nails or wear different pair of shoes or change their, you know, handbags, depending on their look and where they're going or what they want to say, like, why not use tattoos like that, right? Why not use tattoos as a way to complete your look and accessorize your presentation and your fit that way? 

Paul: And how do you still like? Tailor that so it plays into my personal likes, my tastes, things that I'm into or my look. And obviously you've done a bunch of crossovers with other brands and with big media houses. How did you sell that? Because that's quite a very different way of adding personalization because you're selling this idea of a temporary tattoos. A temporary tattoo could be literally anything. 

Woozae: Yeah, I mean, that was the beauty of it is that Inkbox had a catalog of over 10,000 designs on its site. And we work with a network of about 1,200 artists around the world. And I think that led to the credibility of the brand. So we weren't threatening to the tattoo community. We were an agency to them. And for many, a supplement of income to them, especially during COVID, when all the tattoo shops were shut down, Inkbounce would pay out to them for their artwork. That was before I got there. That was something I think that really earned a lot of goodwill with that community. And so you also then see that in the designs. So they are actual tattoo designs. They look great on you. So it was, for some, it could be intimidating. You get to a site and it's like 10,000 designs on the way navigate through that. But people were able to search designs or genres or things they liked. I mean, it is, like you said, a very personal thing. But the beauty of it is that what that persona is, like I said before, can change every week. So you're never like stuck into one bucket. I think that's why having designs over 10,000 of them really helped to similarly drive the hunger for the brand. 

Paul: How did you manage to tap? I mean, obviously we're all about Building Brand Advocacy here, but how did you tap into that word of mouth through social? I mean, it must have been a goldmine being such a visual product and one that changes every two weeks. You can get someone to post about it every two weeks. How did you go about actually building a strategy around that? Because I'm going to guess there was so much opportunity. Figuring out what to do was probably harder than trying to do all these various different things. 

Woozae: Yeah, I was lucky enough to inherit when I got there a fantastic internal team that handled all our reader outreach and advocacy programs. And it was multi-tiered and I can't give too many details because there's probably a little either some confidentiality there. But we had one tier that was peer advocacy, meaning reaching out to customers. I just love the brand. And so my team would, in a very manual way, just kind of monitor what people were posting, looking at the quality of that, like seeing like who's already posted. Once they posted twice, three times. And then over time, we started to pull them together. And gifting was a big part of our strategy, like sending out tattoos to people without any like without a brief. And this wasn't necessarily paid. It was just about like, hey, we see that you like the brand, like try these tattoos. Oh, and by the way, if you want to post. Why this hashtag, but it wasn't like entirely coercive. And there was basically at will, when we found that there's just so much love for the brand as like Trustpilot scores were always like way high in terms of satisfaction and people talking about it. So, you know, it's for us a very natural way of just tapping into the love that was out there and parsing that. And also as a small brand, cause you know, Gamebot is still a startup, we don't have huge marketing dollars, right? So, and content is key. And so they were a great tool for us to generate new content that we can use. So like I said, we send product out there and watch what they produce. And for the ones that we thought were really stellar, then we kind of like bring them into the brand and then kind of evolve and over time, then some would become paid creators if they catch a certain quality level. But it was a great way of sourcing. And, but more than that, this building community, that was really it is like for us actually was about celebrating the audience that celebrates us and really having it be working for, for both parties and that just felt very authentic and organic. 

Paul: I love that. If you're advising a brand today and they've got 100 grand for customer acquisition to send, they can have ads and everything in the mix. What do you think the budget should be towards gifting? 

Woozae: Well, I guess it depends on the cost of your product, right? Luckily, you know, our product, our cost of goods is pretty low. But if you go to like fashion houses where, you know, the item could, the cost could be $50, there's only so many you can be setting up there, right? So beauty brands, you know, lipstick cost about like $2. So they could probably send more. So start there with like budget wise, what can you afford to send out? And then I think you just need to look at strategy. What's your reactions? Is it really just to build community? And to me, that's more of a long tail approach, right? It's not like immediate returns, whereas some implement strategies is about they just, they want to get those hints, they want to get those likes like right away. So you really need to balance, like, what is your short-term and long-term strategy? 

Paul: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You've been doing this in a lot of other brands in terms of Syncbox, you're a Calvin Klein, and we're a part of some really interesting partnerships there. First, tell us about a little snapshot, some of the partnerships you worked on there, and how would you measure the results of those partnerships with the brand? Were you able to track it down to revenue? Was it almost impossible? What were you using as a proxy, if that was the case? I'd love to know. 

Woozae: Yeah, quite often sometimes it's actually not about revenue. It's about building brand relevancy. That was sort of a challenge on an opportunity at Calvin. It was like, when I was brought in, it was like Calvin used to be one of the most iconic fashion brands in the 80's and 90's, right? And then fast forward to like, wasn't like, get there one foot deep. Wasn't as hot as they were. So it was about like, all right, how do we beat my model for the brand, get inserted into the cultural lexicon, getting people talking about us and caring about us again. And so a lot of the partnerships and collaborations we're doing were just about getting the brand back on the radar of our audiences and new audiences especially. So I think it varies. Some are more commercially oriented. Like when I was at Mac, I did a collaboration with Nicki Minaj. And it was before her first album, Big Friday, came out. And so we did a capsule, like a single lipstick there. She chose a color. We worked with her on it. And then we launched it on three consecutive Fridays. It sold out the first Friday in like eight minutes. It crashed the non-spirited website. So that was a huge, that was a great marshall win with also great brand benefits. So always hoping for both, but you may not. But the high level, it really is about building that relevancy. And like, I think a lot of times why a brand will work or partner with someone is to clean your trade brand equity. It's like, they're hot, we're hot, we're hotter, they're less than us. You just like wanna play off each other for mutual benefit. And I think that's why you go into these relationships. 

Paul: And you were USVP of global brand marketing at Calvin. How did that play internationally? Nicki Minaj, she's presumably the majority. Is that North American eyeballs? Did that translate into Europe, into Asia? 

Woozae: Yeah, we did launch it in other markets as well. But to your point, yeah, it was selective and we thought she would resonate. And where her audiences and her barbs and her Kens were, which is kind of funny because we're in Barbie land now, talking about Nicki Minaj again, full circle. But yeah, I mean, it is really important to look at who is well-advanced. Like think about Asia. Asian markets were playing with advocacy on a much higher level even before, Europe and North America. They call it KOLs, key opinion leaders. And so these are high level celebrities that they would align with to push your product. It's like, I remember one experience that MAC was the team in Korea were developing these lipstick colors and they gifted it to this really famous actress there. After her wearing it on the show. It's sold out and sold in all stores like It was like the power of KOLs and Asia is this next level to what happens here. It's like, yeah, but it is, it's tougher there because it's also expensive. Like it is definitely a pay to play. Like cannot just like give to someone like they get paid for this stuff. Yeah, so at Mac, I had this fantastic team, artist relations team, and they were spread across different disciplines, different industries, film, TV, music, and so their job was to build relationships with everyone that was backstage or in the production. So whether it was fashion houses, doing a show, or film production, working with the makeup artists, working with the stylists, working with the creative directors, and just always being present and providing Mac artists, Mac products, and being co-creators of that line. So that was a very organic approach of advocacy and really working with the people that were of influence and getting these things done. So that was influencers before influencers were a thing. And I think that was a big part of the success of Mac and why I so love it because we were just always present and always there. I mean, that was obviously a few years ago, that was on the early, early doors of social media. 

Paul: Well, it's like. Now, it's very different. I mean, you mentioned about the KOLs in Asia and actually, these influences, Nicki Minaj being another one. And then there is then the micro influences and they've already been relatively well tapped out, you know, the prices that are being demanded by these people to work with tend to be quite high, often higher than the value that can be gleaned from them. Where do you think the opportunity is particularly interesting to see what you've learned from the Asian markets of like crafting into just normal people like you and I, how can a brand turn their customers, their fans, their advocates, but into a channel in a way that is measurable, that's predictable, as you would be if you were to pay a KOL or an influencer to do some work? 

Woozae: Yeah, I think any organization should have a multi-tier strategy for marketing. So you can have your very high level talent that you pay X amount money to, to go out there and be your ambassador or speak to you. And then, you know, either they're shooting their own content or you do an actual shoot with them, right? And TBD and how long that relationship is. And then you should always have your very like kind of speed level approach where it's more organic and it's like, like you said, the customers that you know, fall in love with you. What I love about like today, and I was talking about like building brand advocacy is like, that's sort of like a sense of lust that I felt my entire career, right? Because I think ultimately as a marketer, as a brand builder, my job is to build brand most, right? You want your customers to be fanatic by you. You want them constantly being, you need to celebrate you and champion you. And that becomes your word of mouth. And that is a marketing vehicle on its own, right? And quite often is under leverage. But it is really about like building that active relationship. That's also why I like advocacy, because it's not passive. Like you could have a customer that like comes in because you've had a great form of that, like talking about a sale, right? Or some product thing. And it's like, yeah, they convert and they buy it and then they move on. Right. Doesn't mean they love your brand or they really care about your brand. It's like they got a great deal, which is awesome because helps your bottom line. Right. You drop conversion, you drop sales. But in terms of long term value, You want brand advocacy. You want someone who's going to come back on a regular basis. My need is they don't come back and buy, but they're talking about me. You know, they're going to tell their friends, their family, whoever, they're gonna post about it, about an amazing experience. So they love this product. It's like that to me as a brand guy, that's what gets me excited. And that's what I want is like people to fall in love with the brand to the point where they're just annoying. It can't stop. 

Paul: It's sounds all well and good, but I mean, that is the dream. Where do you see people get it wrong? 

Woozae: I don't know about wrong, again, I think it's about like not just doing one thing. It's about hitting all those levels. I have seen a lot of brands only focused on the high. And it's like they go after that person that has a million plus followers and like, you know, they have one post and they think they've won. It's like, well, I don't know if you've won. Like, yeah, that person has a lot of influence, but they're also doing that for 20 other brands. So I question sometimes the authenticity of that. But it then goes back to what your business If you're trying to build scale and get someone's X, Y eyeballs, great, right? But for me, it's like you got to balance that with the authenticity piece. Like finding people that are doing it because they actually care about you and they're not just getting a paycheck. 

Paul: And how do you understand the difference? Is it simply the fact that you're looking in a different place? Is it you're looking at existing customers, people who are following you on social, people who are in your CRM? Or do you think even within those, you can find an authenticity? 

Woozae: Yeah, I mean, it's a little bit of both. I think you have to do the homework. If it's your general customer, your base looking at what they're saying, where they're saying it and engaging in them in their own channels, where it's most relevant for them, but then even for the people that you're paying at a high level, like being more selective about who you're paying money to, like, why are they doing it, what's their motivation and how authentically are they going to speak for you? Some are great at it. Some, you know, yeah, they do have 20 in the brand, but they really do care about your brand and they're excited. So that's a win. But to just do a blanket approach, I think that's where I questioned the validity. I'm going to get in so much trouble. I'm going to get canceled by like other CMOS and be like, why, when I see over what you said and they cut my budget spot. For me, it's very much about quality versus quantity. And I think that's always sort of like the balance you need to like be looking at as a senior leader is like, what am I getting out there? Is it scale or is it the purity of the authenticity of the work? 

Paul: Yeah, I appreciate that. And actually see that in all the programs that you run on jewel, is that the first of all, they always get a question, which is why are you here? And it's a really niche question. Or it's a few things that are designed to catch people up that people who genuinely love the brand will always get and other people won't. And then they have like two or three tiers of activities they need to do and videos about the brand that they need to watch before they get the chance to actually get an affiliate link or to any free product or anything like that. And actually what we found is competitive. It will get rid of 50% of the people who would have been there, would have probably just taken a freebie or a payment or something and maybe not done anything for it. And the ones that you get left, they then not only do they complete the activities, but they're banned, right? You've made it hard enough that only the true fans will say. And when they say the content they create is incredible and reaching in authenticity. So it's something which. A lot when you talk about scale, everyone leans into scale, don't they? But actually, you should be trying to reduce it in every single stage possible to make it hard because what you get back is you get the real gems. You're panning for gold, aren't you? 

Woozae: Yeah. I mean, it's really filtering, right? So looking at them, see who's going to like run so top and who are really working hard for you. And in the end, like they, the consumer, brought a consumer, sees it, you know, they feel it. You know, if someone is like, you know, real and what they're talking about or what they're pushing versus like, oh, that person got a lot of money for this, good for them. But I don't know who believe you. So?

Paul: So. Hey, it's me again. This podcast is sponsored by Duel, which is my company actually. Duel is the leading brand advocacy platform used by the top retail consumer brands, including Unilever, Charlotte Tilbury, ELEMIS, Loop and about 50 more, to manage, measure and scale their advocacy, member, affiliate, creator and brand ambassador operations. The platform offers unparalleled scale for complex brands by automating nine out of 10 of the standard advocacy management activities and allowing them to focus on arming their advocates with the right tools to tell the brand story and drive social commerce. They can grow faster for less. We only work with 15% or so of the brands we speak to, but we try and add value in many other ways, this podcast being one of them. So if you are a brand that's interested in this, maybe a large consumer retail brand, ideally you're doing 20, $30 million as a minimum and you're pretty advanced on social and you need to know what the next stage is, then please get in touch. Email me paul@duel.tech. That is P-A-U-L@D-U-E-L.tech or Google duel.tech. When looking at advocacy and trying to activate people to tell that brand story. With a brand like Inkbox, for example, Calvin and Mac, there's such a various different brands. You've got fashion, you've got beauty, you've got, as you said, tattoos in that fashion sort of space. The people that you are activating and the people that you are getting to tell your story, do you find that you have to have control over the narratives that they say, or do you often just get the product in their hands and then sit back and let them tell your story in a way that is authentic to them? 

Woozae: It's a little bit of both. I think, again, it depends on what tier you're in. If it's really just serve your base, pure advocates, it's like, let them do their thing. It's like, because you're not really compensating for them. They're just engaging because they care about you. And for some of them, maybe it's like, this is the beginning of their career as a creator or influencer. So you're giving a great pathway for that. Just let them go on. You might write a little bit of guidance, like give us some examples of things that have been done in the past, but you're not really being prescriptive. And then when you get to the tiers where you are, being people a lot of money, then they need to follow a brief. And you need to know what you're getting out of it. And I think for a lot of brands, sometimes it's hard, it's scary to let go and put your faith into the hands of someone you've never met before. Especially for high fashion brands, I think that gets scary. Let's be honest, they're going to be out there doing it anyways. So you either be part of this conversation and get on board and enjoy the process, or you stand on the sidelines. Personally, I'd rather be part of the conversation. So.

Paul: That totally make sense. And what did you find was the biggest shift in mindset going from big organizations like Mac and Calvin to someone the same size as Inkbox? 

Woozae: Interesting. Obviously the buttons are different, right? So how you spend. Is a vampire. Inkbox had ambitions of being a big brand, being iconic, right? Inkbox is creating a whole new category and creating new behavior and generating desire with this very cool audience. So I don't think the size necessarily impacts sort of the ambition of what, you know, Inkbox is trying to do. One thing I'll say is like being a small company and a startup is very nimble. So we were able to do it very quickly and make decisions like in one meeting. Whereas, you know, getting into large organizations, there's a lot of red tape and a lot of stakeholders. You have a pre-meeting, before the meeting, and then post-meeting, after the meeting, so like a lot of that going out. Whereas in start of lines, it's like, does this, you're more in like, let's get it done mode, which, you know, has its pluses and negatives. Well, I think probably that's the biggest difference is the speed at which you're doing things in Beijing, but the ambitions are the same. 

Paul: And sort of through the evolution of your career as a marketer, the hot demographic would have been the millennials way back when now it's Gen Z. Have you had to massively change the way that you think? I know obviously the platforms have changed from Facebook to TikTok, et cetera, but. Is there a different mindset or the same or the first principles the same about how you market? 

Woozae: I think a lot of the principles are the same, yes, they're different generations. And with that, there are some cultural nuances go on and what they respond to and definitely the platforms. The ways to reach them has changed dramatically over the years, but even early on, one of my first jobs was at Virgin Mobile. And so that was a brand completely focused on the youth market. So I've been talking to young people across my years and the generations of that youth change, but it's still the mindset of like, the reason why that generation or that audience excites me is, to me, that's how you generate heat, because they're more engaged, they're very vocal, they're gonna be talking about you, they want to be involved, they're not shy in speaking their mind. And I think when you have that audience behind you, the dispersed conversations, and you create that cultural relevance, and that boils up to the older people that are sort of a tipping point concept, is you wanna start with the core and have that kind of like spill out into the broader audiences. But you wanna hit that core audience first, because they're the ones that are sort of like guiding trends and creating conversations that everyone else is trying to join. So I think starting with you is a great way of just like starting new ideas. 

Paul: And then how do you expand on that? How do you solidize your core, but then also serve 42 year old moms and dads? 

Woozae: Well, I think it's about like the voice speaking way that is very national organic to your core audience without disenfranchising someone who's older. Trick is though, like someone who's 40 wishes they were still in their 20's. Right? It's very, oh, it's, someone in 20's does now want to be on 40's. So it's about like finding that balance of still being aspirational both, but being truthful to the original court audience. 

Paul: Yeah. And would you recommend some brands that just sometimes you just sell to an older demographic and that's just what your product is. 

Woozae: Know your brand. Some brands are, you know, characters, Gen Z. And it's like, it's funny, you have like some established brands and can't be more honest if I had to like, Oh, you know, I have to get on Snapchat or have to get on TikTok and it's like, well, I see. Why? Like, yes, it is a hot platform and a lot of people are on there, but is your audience out there? For me, it's not about age. It's not about a number. I think it's about a mindset and a personality. Whether you're, you know, 15, 25 or 40, it is more about like, what's your point of view and what's your attitude and how do you bring that across? So me as a brand, I want to attack that. I want to hit your heart. All right. I want to appeal to you in an emotional way. It's not about like demographic targeting. It's more about lifestyle targeting. So if your son was going to embrace that, then yeah, then a brand could operate on multiple cylinders and still be true. It's not about an age. It's about a lifestyle point of view. That's why I think it's important for a lot of brands. What I've done in my career is create like segmentations and personas. So you're going to have like multiple, you know, audiences in your brand. What is it about that profile that's going to resonate? And so you might have different products that's going to cater to those different audiences. You might not have something that's going to resonate with everyone. That's fine. It's going to resonate to choose theirs with the audience. And then you have something else that's going to resonate to that one third. Everyone can eat here, right? So you're going to have something for everything. When I got to Mac, it's like one of their. Or values as all use, all reasons, all sexes. And when I heard that, I was like, as a marketer, I was like, well, that's impossible. Like you can't be everything that everyone. And it's like, but once I got in and really saw sort of like customer data and talking to them and like being in industry and working with the artist relations team, it really was cheap because Mac was about a point of view and an attitude. It was about celebration, it was about self-expression, it was about creativity, it was about color. And that can resonate and be true for anyone, whether you're 15 or, you know, I had to be worked with Iris Apfel. She was fantastic and one of the most vibrant and badass people I've ever like. Met or retaliated and it's like she could give someone in their 20's around for their money. So.

Paul: How old is she?

Woozae: Well. I think she just turned, center nineties might be, yeah, think, Oh, sorry. I heard something is wrong. Um, but she's just so alive and that really came through for the brand because, you know, back is about that. So I would say like really start with who you are as a brand, who your audience is, what you stand for, and then go find people that are similar. And that's not necessarily by two, a name, I mean, to an age or number. 

Paul: And that's. It kind of, comes sort of circle to what we're saying about that old antique piece is if they are there because they love the brand or they love the content, it's the right match and same thing. And you could be nice to be, if you spend all your time consuming TikTok content, you'll know how TikTok works. It's the people who are trying to play in areas that they don't feel authentically is the place that they want to spend their time. So I think if it's not interesting to them, it probably isn't going to be interesting to anyone else they create or they engage with it on the wrong level. 

Woozae: What's really fun to see is the second life for a lot of older people coming in. They're called the genuine B. Grandfluencers, grandmothers and grandfathers, right? It's like, I'm young and they're engaging these platforms at a new syndrome and they're so endearing and so fun and so excited to be doing it and like find a way to connect with probably their grandchildren or younger people and it's like, it just feels so real and it's beautiful. So it's like, yeah, back to my point. It's like, it's not about age, it's about, like a mindset and what you're talking about and how you celebrate that. 

Paul: Yeah, I've not actually gone down that rabbit hole, but I think I know what I'm gonna be.

Woozae: It's so fun. It is so cool. It just makes you happy. It just makes you smile. Like, you know, good to see you. Get yours. Get out there. It's never over. Just enjoy your life. 

Paul: Amazing. One last question for me. So what are the handful of things that you would recommend every brand builder starts working on from today based on the principles of our conversation we just had, I can predict, but I'd love to hear them. 

Woozae: Yeah, I mean, I think number one is like, understand your brand, like build that foundation. Like what are you standing at? So like, what's your purpose? What's your core values? You know, what's your mission statement? And that is a tool that you're going to need. Everything you're doing because that's your brand culture, right? So that's going to help you decide who you work with, who you don't work with, partnerships, advocates, all that stuff, because that's going to be how you measure if this is brand right or not. You know, some organizations. Me, not think that way, but that's always been central to how I approach my roles, my first career and luckily, dependent organizations that also like respect and understand brands. So for brand builders, I would say start there because that's the fundamentals. And then that's how you build from there. It's like when, I was one of my early jobs was at this fantastic agency called Down and Duffy. And so they built the brand planning principle or one of the first people to build brand planning principles. And it was like, we would have some clients come in and be like, Hey, I want a Super Bowl spot. And it was like, fear the agency. That's like, kind of like, yes. But we'd say, well, that's awesome. Great. You have that ambition, but let's start and figure out who you are as a brand first and then figure out like, how do we tell your story? How do we express it? That might be a Superbowl spot or it might not be right. So it's like, let's not go straight to execution without understanding who you are, who the audience is, what makes you special, makes you unique. And then what is the best way to connect you with their consumers? 

Paul: Amazing tip. Thank you so much for your time, Woozae. That's been fantastic. Come in Building Brand Advocacy. 

Woozae: Yeah, absolutely. You know, build that ground up. 

Paul: That was another episode of Building Brand Advocacy, the world's top brand building podcast. To find out more about building brand advocacy and how this podcast is part of a bigger plan for our brand building cookbook, then make sure to search for building brand advocacy in Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google podcasts, or anywhere else the podcasts are fine. And make sure that you click subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes. Thanks to Duel for sponsoring. To find out more, go to www .duel .tech, that's D -U -E -L dot T -E -C -H. And on behalf of the team here at Building Brand Advocacy, thanks for listening.

We can't wait to meet you.