There’s no brand magic without brand meaning. 

The biggest names in beauty know this. 

This week, Verity sits down with Coryn Brisbane (Brand & Marketing Consultant | ex-VIEVE, Charlotte Tilbury, Flannels, Glossybox) to talk brand values, internal Advocacy, and what happens when beauty brands scale too fast, too superficially.

With a powerhouse CV and a fierce belief in brands that live their values, not just listing them, Coryn’s sharing unmissable insider advice from the industry’s front-lines.

She’s led product launches, like Pillow Talk Mascara and Airbrush Bronzer. She’s scaled brands from startup to sell-out. But her insights go deeper than shade names and social content. This is about embedding brand from the inside out; and protecting it (flexibly) at all costs.

 

Hit play to learn how to:

• Challenge Surface-Level Values: Coryn breaks down how to tell if your brand pillars exist only on paper, or are actually embedded across the team.
  
  
• Build Employee Advocacy That Lasts: From EGC to onboarding, Coryn shares why Charlotte Tilbury got it right – and how to recreate that magic.
  
  
• Avoid the Short-Term Trap: See firsthand how chasing quick wins chips away at long-term trust (and what to do instead).
  
  
• Reframe the Role of Brand Teams: Brand isn’t a nice-to-have; it’s the function that unifies every customer touchpoint. Ignore it now at your brand’s future peril.
  
  
• Ask Better Questions, To Build Smarter Brands: The best marketers don’t just have answers – they ask the right questions. Start with “Why?”
  
  

If you’ve ever felt like your team’s running a hundred miles an hour without a clear direction, this one will hit home.

Listen. Challenge. Build Advocacy from the inside out.

 

Chapters:

00:00 – Why Team Advocacy Beats Surface Values  

02:22 – Building Strategy from Brand Pillars  

05:13 – What Brand Storytelling Should Really Do  

08:20 – Employee Advocacy: What It Looks Like (When It Works)  

11:31 – How Charlotte Tilbury Built Belief Internally  

13:35 – The Danger of Chasing Short-Term Wins  

15:15 – Staying True to Your Brand as You Grow  

18:35 – The Influencer Myth That Still Hurts Brands  

22:11 – How to Nurture Creators for the Long-Term  

27:10 – Why Brand Teams Are Not “Nice-to-Haves”  

31:20 – What Founders Get Wrong About Community  

36:45 – Defining Community (And If You Even Have One)  

39:10 – Turning Insight Into Product Innovation  

42:46 – DCYPHER: A Case Study in Customer-Led Branding  

45:08 – The Question Marketers Should Ask More Often  

48:30 – The Real Way You Build Brand Advocacy  

 

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Connect with Coryn:

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Coryn Brisbane [00:00:00]:

You as a brand and you as a person should be showing up at the moments that matter for them. So when they're not posting about you, are you liking their content? Are you commenting if they've got married, are you saying congratulations? Are you responding to the moments which aren't about you?

 

Paul Archer [00:00:26]:

Have you ever wondered why some brands grow exponentially, building legions of passionate fans that live and die by their logos? And some, well, don't. I do all the time, and that's probably because I'm a massive brand nerd. But I believe there's a secret sauce at the core of every remarkable brand. A formula that sparks the growth of passionate communities, of superfans, building a business and a reputation that will last for years to come. My name is Paul Archer and I'm a specialist in brand advocacy and word of mouth, having consulted for hundreds of brands on a topic.

 

Verity Hurd [00:00:59]:

Hey, it's Verity here, your co host of the Building Brand Advocacy podcast.

 

Paul Archer [00:01:03]:

In this podcast, we tap into the greatest marketing minds in the world. They share the exact tactics and strategies used to build the world's greatest brands, dropping actionable insights every brand builder can apply.

 

Verity Hurd [00:01:15]:

We've got some incredible guests coming up, sharing insights and tips that can truly shift the marketing landscape. And if you want to be the first to hear, make sure you hit that follow button. The more people following the show, the bigger and better we can make it. So if you're loving what you hear, don't forget to follow and spread the word. Thanks again for listening. It really means a lot. I hope you enjoy this next episode.

 

Paul Archer [00:01:38]:

It's time to learn and build brand advocacy.

 

Verity Hurd [00:01:42]:

Hello and welcome to Building Brand Advocacy. Today I am joined by the incredibly talented brand and marketing consultant, Coryn. Welcome to the podcast.

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:01:52]:

Hello. Thank you for having me.

 

Verity Hurd [00:01:53]:

Karin, you've worked across some really impressive brands. Do you want to just give us a little insight into your career before we get stuck in?

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:02:01]:

Yeah, of course. So I have been in beauty for about a decade now, just over. So I started, if you can remember, way back when the subscription boxes of Glossybox and Birchbox. And then I moved over to Charlotte Tilbury where I managed colour in their global brand marketing team. So did launches like Pillow Talk Mascara and Airbrush Bronzer. I then moved over to flannels and launched Beauty with them. It was a whole new compartment for them. And then more recently have been at Viv at as the head of brand marketing.

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:02:34]:

And then six months ago, almost to the day, I worked out earlier I decided to go freelance. So I am now a brand and Marketing consultant for different brands.

 

Verity Hurd [00:02:42]:

Oh, wow, that's super impressive. A big, big move as well to go freelance. So. Yeah. Yeah. Congratulations.

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:02:49]:

Thank you. Yeah, it's been the best six months, haven't looked back, which is a good thing. I love working in house but it's been a new set of skills to apply my years of experience to kind of lots of new, smaller brands as well.

 

Verity Hurd [00:03:02]:

Yeah, absolutely. So, as you've mentioned, you've worked across both sort of like legacy and challenger brands. And I was just wondering, in terms of like when you first step into a new brand, where do you start? When it comes to building out a.

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:03:16]:

Brand strategy, I think the most important thing for me is understanding the brand values and their pillars. For me, they are like your guiding principle, they are your North Star. They should underpin every single business decision, whether that's strategic, creative, consumer facing. So in an ideal world, I go into a brand where those pillars have already been defined and I think from there, when building out a strategy, it's seeing whether they're actually being lived and breathed across the board business. I think, I mean, I would, I can't remember all of the brand values that I've worked at all the businesses, some of them I can, others not so much, which shows that the business probably wasn't living and breathing them. They sometimes a bit of a, a tick box that, that you do and sometimes kind of force from HR as metrics that you do at annual reviews and things like that. So I think it's really understanding and interrogating those, those pillars and those values and making sure that the team know them, that the consumer feels them, whether that's directly or indirectly. More often than not, though, they might not be created.

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:04:19]:

So I think it's about listening, so trying to get that information from key stakeholders, listening to your customer, listening to the team and trying to understand like what those key values are. And then when you're building out the strategy, it's making sure that every single decision, every single decision, strategic pillar of that strategy links back to those, those values because once you've got that foundation in place, the rest of the brand can kind of grow from there in a real credible and authentic way to who you are as a brand.

 

Verity Hurd [00:04:49]:

Yeah, no, completely agree. It's something that we talk about a lot in terms of starting with the why and the purpose. And that obviously really links back to the values as well. And you're right, I've been in, I've been in many companies myself where they're just, they're just Big black letters on a wall. I'm thinking about my House of Razor days and they'd be just in like the staff canteen. And it was like, what, what do these actually stand for? Like, you see them but you don't actually know what you're meant to be doing as an employee, to stand and live by these words that you see plastered everywhere. Just in terms of like brand stories, then how quickly do you think you can tell if a brand story is like truly running through their product and not just their marketing going back to sort of like what you're saying around the values?

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:05:33]:

I think one of the ways that I think you can kind of tell it is asking yourself, like, could your team members or could your customer probably more importantly, articulate who your brand is in like an elevator pitch? And it goes beyond just, we're a makeup brand that sells product. It's who you are, what you stand for, what your purpose is and kind of how you're different from other brands as well. And I think if your customer base, your team can articulate that like cohesively with real clarity and it feels really authentic in a way that, you know, I think if like everyone can say the same thing basically, and it has real, and it has real cohesion across what everyone is saying about you, then you're probably in a good place that you've got a well rounded brand. And I think quite often, often brands can feel quite functional. And that's where it's really hard for a consumer to articulate who that brand is and why they're different and why they should believe in them.

 

Verity Hurd [00:06:37]:

Do you think that's like becoming a bit more relevant now that say like LinkedIn is obviously it's, it's, it feels like a completely different platform to what it was like a few years ago. And we're seeing a lot more, I mean, employee, employee content is happening all over the space. Like we're seeing, you know, PRIMARK employees on TikTok through to, you know, know the employees in brands talking about the work that they're doing. Do you think that's becoming more relevant, that the employees really need to have that cohesive story now? And you, you, we're starting to see it more and more every day through the platforms and how they're talking about what they're doing and where they're working? I don't know if that makes sense.

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:07:14]:

But I'm just, I think, yeah, Employee Generated content. Is it E.G.C. everyone calls it. It's like a new kind of instead of ugc egc, I think it's going to be one of those, those things where it has to be done right rather than it being. I think I've been in businesses already where I'm starting to see EGC being branded about and I think the real way that a brand can be successful when it comes to that employee advocacy is if it's genuinely lived and breathed through the team and it's not forced upon them to be like you need to post something and you need to about us. And I think sometimes the best cases of where that employee advocacy has shone through for me is where it almost hasn't been mandated by the brand. It's almost, you can imagine it's a member of the social team or better if it's even not someone from the social team kind of going, I kind of want to talk about the business. Is that allowed? It will obviously be done in a positive and sensitive way and I think then it feels really, really genuine and I think people build that real connection.

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:08:15]:

Whereas and I think EGC is seen more as a tick box of oh, can you all jump on LinkedIn and talk about us then I, then I think it will lose that weight. But I do think employee advocacy is super important and I think where in my career I've naturally kind of gravitated towards startups. I think in those early days of businesses you're part of something, you feel like you're really part of making something. You're not coming in 10 years in where everything's established and you're kind of a, a small fish in a big pond. You really hands on experience. And I think one of the biggest challenges but opportunities for brands is to keep that employee advocacy alive. Because if your employees aren't super passionate about you and living and breathing the brand and being your biggest advocates and why should your customers care? If your own team don't really want to talk about you, then why should you expect a customer too? So I think it's the responsibility of the business and the culture and that team spirit. And again, coming down to those values, if everyone knows what you're working towards and what the direction is, then that that kind of feeling should be palpable and that fire should be ignited pretty, pretty strongly.

 

Verity Hurd [00:09:26]:

Yeah, I mean apart from the values, I mean I think they're obviously the North Star, the foundation for all of this. How like, have you seen any other ways that brands have really sort of got their employees behind them in like in a, in a cool, you know, sort of like innovative ways or do you Think it is just purely down to sort of like the recruitment process, really, and kind of getting that bit right and getting them embedded in the values from day one. Or is it something that you can kind of, you know, turn around?

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:09:54]:

Yeah, I think. I think culture is one of the most important things. I think, you know, if you're. If it's quite a transactional role between you and your employees, if you come in, you do this job, you get paid, goodbye. Then. Then people are. It's a transactional relationship that you're going to get out of your employees. Whereas I think when that culture, like that onboarding process of really making that consumer, that.

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:10:19]:

Not that consumer, making that employer know what their part within that business is and what the vision of the business is. So when I was at Charlotte Tilbury, the goal was always to be the number one beauty brand. We lived and breathed that. And I think they are one of the brands where I can remember what their values were, because every single meeting, every single decision was fundamentally underpinned by those four values that we had. And, um. And so I think that was a really good example of that. Every single employee understanding what their part was. And we knew that we would get that North Star of being the number one beach brand years later.

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:11:00]:

They absolutely are. And I genuinely think that's because there was this real momentum and they call it, like, the magic of Charlotte Tilbury. And it does. Like, when you're in there, it feels almost cultish, but in a good way of, like, we know what we're working towards and we are going to be bigger, bolder, brighter than any other brand out there and so confused in every single decision. But you had, like, they call it their start of a dream. Their first week that you're on boarding, you're fully immersed in the product, the people, the culture, the value. So that really sets you up for success of what you know, that you need to deliver within your role. And my start of a dream, I was with people from finance, from vm, from operations, et cetera.

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:11:42]:

So even though we're all going into different avenues from there, that kind of employee advocacy started from day one, really.

 

Verity Hurd [00:11:49]:

Yeah. That's a great example. Love that. The Charlotte Tilbury magic. I love it. It's great as well.

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:11:56]:

Like, we all believe and, you know, everything that that brand does, they kind of infuse that magic to the customer. So it's kind of really palpable within the brand.

 

Verity Hurd [00:12:04]:

Yeah, love it. And then thinking about, like, obviously Charlotte Tilbury, I mean, it is one of the biggest Brands, but in terms of like some of the fast growth brands that you've worked with or even just brands that you've seen, do you, have you ever seen a brand sort of like compromise too much and lose like the love that they were building and if so, what, what do you think were the things that went wrong?

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:12:26]:

I think the nature of startups unfortunately means that and especially like the economic climate that we've been in in the last, you know, few years or longer, I think that the biggest thing that I have seen that compromises, that kind of stuff, sustainability and that long term growth, it's just making really short decisions. So it's focusing on those short wins. And I think again it, it, it's really challenging every single decision. And don't get me wrong, you need to hit a number and you need to hit your KPIs. But I think sometimes what you see in, in kind of chasing a balance sheet or chasing kind of metrics that sometimes are just pulled together, I think sometimes you don't even interrogate like why are we challenging this metric? Like you need say absolutely. But sometimes you go, oh, we'll just send another email or we'll just do another piece of this activity as opposed to going is that chipping away or building? So I think trust and loyalty within a brand is cumulative. So every decision that you make, every campaign, every collaboration, every consumer touch point either adds or takes away from it. So I think unless you as a brand and as a team are really confident in why you are doing a certain thing and sometimes the money will win or that the of that decision will have to win.

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:13:45]:

But I think if you're constantly chasing that, short term customers can see it like we've got to give them more credit sometimes than I think people do. So when it's like, oh, we listen to you and we're going to give you this discount at the end of the month, it's like, oh, you just are doing another sale in order to hit a revenue target. So I think it's just about being really purposeful with those decisions and making sure you're not compromising too much on those values. Because once that trust has been eroded, it doesn't matter how much money you throw at it, how much media spend or influencer collaborations or whatever it might be, because you've already lost those building blocks in the early days. So I think it's that balance between being steadfast in your long term vision and not making too many short term wins that will eventually compromise the longevity of the growth brand.

 

Verity Hurd [00:14:33]:

Yeah, I love that point actually though about what you said around the consumers and you know I think over the years we didn't, I don't know how to, how to word it. It's not that we didn't need to kind of like, like you said we, we need to give them more credit because you know a few years ago they weren't thinking and sort of focusing on the things that they're thinking about now. And we are, you know we're, we're both consumers as well. Like we're so much savvier, we think about things so much differently now in terms of you know, the whole sort of social commerce space and what we want when we go into like a store and all of that stuff. And it'll be interesting to see what we're like in a couple of years time particularly with the gen alphas coming up and like obviously Gen Z's and you know we all want something so different. So I think it'll be really interesting but a complex space for brands over the next few years from a, from a consumer standpoint. Sorry I went on a complete random ramble there but what do you think is a non negotiable when it comes to building a brand designed for long term love?

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:15:43]:

Yeah, I think it's again I'm going to sound like a break record but I think it's really saying true to those. Not even like your, like it's saying true to your values and your principles but I think it's really holding true that fundamental reason as to why you launched the brand or the product in the first place. And I think brands evolve right. So you know your consumer is going to change and I think who you might think your brand is when you launch it doesn't mean like people go through rebrands and you know I've been at brands before where they think their customer is one person and actually there are completely different classes. You have your tone of voice and you're creative and things to still trying to track the person that you want to but also you know stick true to the person and the consumer that's actually shopping with you. But I think it's so noisy out there that I think really trying to remind yourself and the team is why you are different and not getting too swayed by outside noise because I think I've definitely been guilty of it in the past where you're like oh God, Ro did that or if I did that we should do it and actually that's great that they did it. And one of the, one of the team at Viv was always like, hate it when people say, look how amazing what that they're doing is from a jealousy point of view. They're like, we do things that hopefully in their team, they're going to be saying, oh, my God, Viv did that.

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:17:04]:

And how incredible. So I think just making sure that you are sticking true to who you are and taking inspiration from what's going on and evolving and adapting, but not sacrificing the fundamental core foundations of the brand. Because I think that's when a customer from day one goes, well, I bought into you because of this, and three years later, you. It's a completely different expression and a completely different narrative. And the team is always going to change. You know, you're always going to have a new person that's going to be in marketing or in brand or in copy or whatever it might be. But you need to make sure that if you've got that solid foundation, it doesn't matter the new team members that are coming in to a consumer, it still feels like it's that same original vision that's being expressed to them.

 

Verity Hurd [00:17:51]:

Yeah, and I think I actually wrote something not, not as detailed and as good an answer of what you just said there, but I even wrote on a comment today on LinkedIn, around. I think, again, that just in terms of like, the digital landscape that we're in and brands, it goes back to what you were saying around brands. Sort of like looking at maybe what a competitor's doing or a brand that they aspire to. And it's like, yeah, we want to be doing that. And it, it's almost like we're kind of. I think, I think, I think a lot of brands feel there's a playbook for this, particularly on sort of social media and how to build a community and like. And actually there isn't. It all comes back to exactly what you say about knowing your customer, your values and what, what you stand for.

 

Verity Hurd [00:18:32]:

And how does that translate into how do I then build a community? What do we do on socials? And it's, it's funny that we, A lot of brands are sort of missing that now because it's just this rat race to kind of keep up. And, you know, it's probably naturally going to happen because of, like, trends and algorithms and all this stuff. But, yeah, I think, I think you're exactly right. It really does come back to just being able to stick to it and keeping that integrity. So it's so key. If I've got a random question. If you could ban one phrase or a mindset that fast growth brands lean on that actually kills brand love, what, what would it be?

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:19:09]:

I think probably thinking kind of off the cuff here, but probably the influences of the be all and end all of your success. And I think I was talking to someone about this the other day. I think the tide is going to change relatively quickly on that whole influencer piece. I don't know what's going to come next, but none of us saw Tick Tock years ago and how that would change the landscape. Um, and I think what's happening now is, see, you need to kind of see influences and that content creator piece in a, in a multitude of ways. And I think quite often, I think there's a thinking in brands that the way that you're going to unlock success and you're going to unlock advocates and customers is through influencer talking about. And I think there's two sides of influencers. You've either got the, you've got the community of influencers that are just producing content and you'll see there's their favourite moisturiser one week to a favourite moisturiser the next week to a favourite moisturiser the week after and customers are like not being influenced as much anymore.

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:20:15]:

And then you've got the other side of that, which is the influencers and content creators who will only back things that they genuinely believe in. And you're kind of doomed either way because you, you've got to have an amazing product that the people that genuinely will only talk about products that they love. You've got to get it into their hands and you've got to want them to be able to talk about it. And if you go down the other route of just pure saturation, then you're probably not going to get the results that you need because we've just got loads of people talking about the same product and sometimes you're scrolling on TikTok where a product's just launched. I've heard the same script 17 times in a row. So you go, well, I know that these people don't genuinely, genuinely love it. So I think one of the narratives that I think is we're having to diversify and three or four years ago you could have built a brand on an influencer strategy and now it's much more about spotlighting those creators early on, the people that you can build the most authentic relationships with. Working at Viv, we had all had from my side had because I don't work with her anymore, but an incredible influencer manager who spotlighted talent right at the early doors and really those relationships so that when they went from Nano into a mid tier creator, they valued feed and they valued that the relationship was built.

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:21:34]:

So I think that's one of the narratives of just it can't just be transactional with content creators. There's a place for them and they're absolutely valuable, but they're not going to be the end or be all and end all of growing your business. And you also have to have dedicated resource that's going to nurture those relationships to have real time success.

 

Verity Hurd [00:21:51]:

Yeah, that's a great answer. What were some of the ways, or could you give us a bit of an insight into some of the ways that like, I appreciate that it wasn't necessarily your role there at the time, but how. What did they do to kind of nurture them from, you know, one stage to the next so that they do feel that brand sort of like love for you through every stage of like the creator's career?

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:22:11]:

I think it's, it's genuinely having a human behind it and someone that's going to care about them. I always say that it shouldn't just be transactional between a content creator or an influencer. You as a brand and you as a person should be showing up at the moments that matter for them. So when they're not posting about you, are you liking their content? Are you commenting if they've got married, are you saying congratulations, are you responding to the moments which aren't about you? And I think what Lowry, who was the content manager, the influencer manager at vee, did, was really like, she's just a lovely person that wants to build relationships with people. So she would spotlight talent quite early on. And I think the way that she always talks about thinking about influences and thinking about creators is not necessarily about Nano to mid, it's about what value, what purpose. You've got some people who might not be sales drivers and they might not have a huge following, but they create incredible content and that's beautiful and aesthetic and you can do a spark ad with it or you can repost a UGC on your channel. You then might have people that are really big names and they're there for brand awareness, but they're not going to convert and you might not use their content and then you've got the other side of people that their content might not be amazing and they don't have huge brand awareness, but they are cash cows and they're revenue and I think it's recognising what each of that value can be and what you can give back to them.

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:23:44]:

Because I think it's, you know, not all brands have budget in order to be able to pay creators but if you're working with someone from an affiliate point of view and you know they're a bit of cash cow and they have real influence, then it's about unlocking a higher commission from them. If there's loves creating content, invite them to your events and fuel them with opportunities where they can create content. So I think that was Larry's amazing strength is actually recognising the value of each of the, each of the influencer but also just building a real relationship with them where it doesn't just go we're only going to show up every three months when we want to send you a PR mailer and follow up. It's about kind of always being present and that requires a lot of time and a lot of resource and you could go weeks of just talking to people and nothing coming from it. So it's quite a hard role because there's bits that are really tangible in terms of affiliates and link clicks and all of that but then there's a softer side which is effectively relationship building. But when that person goes, hopefully does become big and they went from 7,000 followers to 700, they're going to remember that brand that was advocating for them sending them products, present and supporting their career in the early days and not just jumping on them because they've now got 700,000.

 

Verity Hurd [00:25:03]:

Yeah. Oh no. I absolutely love everything that you've just said. There is high touch is high level but 100% needed when it, when it comes to sort of like keeping those relationships alive. And I love like the example of sort of like you know, if they just got married or is it their birthday or like and just those little surprise and delight moments where you know they're not expecting it, you're not asking for anything back in return. But it's just, you know, you wouldn't, I don't know, you wouldn't go on a dating app and just like, I don't know if this is even the right example to use but it is about you've got, you've got to kind of like give and you know, and you know, have that two way relationship with someone. And I think when brands sort of say influencer marketing doesn't work is because they're not taking it as like this holistic approach and thinking about it the way that you've just described it how you know, creators and influencers at every level have a part to play in the marketing mix and yeah, love that example. I want to so great that brand is having a bit of a moment at the moment and should I say another moment and I think especially when it comes to community and thankfully for us advocacy has been talked about a lot more now as well.

 

Verity Hurd [00:26:17]:

But some of it does feel still quite superficial. I think some of these words are becoming buzzwordy. What do you think is the most misunderstood part of brand building today?

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:26:29]:

I think internally at brands it's that brand as a function isn't really needed and you know, for me that's challenging because that is like my bread and butter. But I think again in this kind of, in this climate you kind of have to look when you're looking at team structures you go, well we need someone in finance and if we sell product online we need an E commerce person and if we're selling a product we probably need customer care to answer responses. And then you've got your channel managers and then brand I think as a function can feel sometimes like nice to have. But I always say that brand in itself is as a function is that seamless red throw thread that brings your purpose and your personality to the top, to the customer in a really cohesive way. So consumers don't engage with brands in silo. So take this journey for example. So you might be scrolling on TikTok because we've just been talking about and an influencer has spoken about a brand and they tag that brand. So you click onto the brand's organic social and you go I'm going to carry on scrolling.

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:27:37]:

Three days later you get retargeted with a paid ad and maybe there's an offer. So you click through to the website, then you get a pop up to sign up to an email and then you go and shop a few days later. From a team point of view, that customer has touched the influencer manager, the organic social team, the paid social team or paid search, the digital team and then the CRM or email team. So that's five teams. And I think what, what's really important from a consumer standpoint and for you to have success is to make sure that every single one of those touch points is cohesive and then it feels unified under one voice and one vision. Because I've seen so many brands and I've gone into brands before where you go the emails talking about this and socials talking about this and the site's talking about this and none of it's sinking up. And I think the misunderstood misconception is that actually brand is that function, that all of that together. And I think that the most successful brands recognise that you need someone who is going to be that brand guardian.

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:28:44]:

And it's a really tough role because I always say I'm the most annoying person in the business because I'm the person going, can we just know what you're doing? And it's not because I don't trust what you're doing or I don't think you're an expert. I go, oh, that team's doing this, so maybe you might want to talk about that too. Well, they've had this amazing idea and I think that could sync up with this channel. And if you've never worked with anyone in brand before, it can be really frustrating. So just like, why is this person on my back all the time? But it's really to make sure that all of that hard work that going across the teams is being presented to a customer cohesively and seamlessly so that that customer goes, oh, I kind of know what this brand is about, because it takes repetition for a consumer to build trust in a brand. They're not just going to see one paid ad and be like, I'm gonna buy from that immediately. Sometimes it happens, but rarely. So I think the biggest misconception is probably that brand just isn't a function that is necessarily needed and it's one of the first things that can go and be sacrificed when run.

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:29:46]:

People are having to scale back and teams are having to get scaled back. But I think when you've got really a strong brand at the hands of someone who is really protecting it at all costs, cost that going to enhance that consumer experience and build on that advocacy and build on that trust.

 

Verity Hurd [00:30:03]:

Yeah, that's really insightful. I love that example and I think we need to take that and use that across all of our socials and get it really out there. Because I think it's. It's really insightful how you've described that as a function. As I mentioned at this sort of like what I just said around community, obviously having a moment and what I feel is becoming more and more of a buzzword. I mean, obviously you've led global brand marketing and obviously you consulting now, when a CMO or a founder says, like, we want to create a community, what do you ask them first to know whether they really mean it? Because I think the word community has been massively diluted as well.

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:30:45]:

Yeah, I think there's some completely agree and I think there's some really important questions that need to be asked. I think the first one is what, what does, what is your definition of community? Because I've worked in brands where community is your customer, it's your email database, it's a loyalty programme, it's high spend customers, it's nano creators, it's all of the above or parts of them. So I think it's just actually defining what, what does community mean for you? I think the second question is why I don't think every brand needs to have a community. But like you said, it's a buzzword that is thrown around everywhere now that I think people, we need a community. So it's kind of challenging. Why do you want one or why do you think you're in a position to have one? I think arguably the most important question is what are you willing to do or give up potentially in order to have a community? Because community isn't just starting a conversation which people think is a broadcast channel. We're just going to, you know, invite you to a broadcast channel and broadcast messaging out to you. And it's not just replying to inbound comments or DMs, that's, it has to be a two way dialogue.

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:31:58]:

And that's not to say that you have to take on every, like you don't have to change things based on every single thing your community is feeding back to you. And again, if you're, if you fundamentally don't believe in it and it financially doesn't make sense logistically doesn't make sense, it doesn't align with one of your core values, you don't have to do it, but you also have to then if you're listening to your community and inviting that conversation and you're not going to take on board what they're saying, then you have to go back to them and tell them that you're not going to do it and why. So you either have to be committed to changing things about your business and that could be taking on feedback about a product and changing the formula, that can be really, really costly. Or it could be changing your entire loyalty programme. If your community is going, this isn't working for us and you don't like it, or if you're not willing to make those changes, it's going, we hear you, we know it's important to you, we cannot do it. But here is why. And I think that requires some real, some real decision making. It requires, you know, a commitment from the team that if we're opening up this two way dialogue that we are going to listen and we're going to respond.

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:33:03]:

And it's also not just saying the short term wins. I think it's like, oh, my community said that they would like an early access to a product. So we did that and we listened to our community. Are you doing the things that take a really long time and are harder to action? So you need to make sure that you're, you're open to what they're going to tell you, the good, the bad and the ugly, and that you're going to have a team that's going to do this because it's a bit like that Lowry piece that we're talking about from an influencer point of view. It requires someone that is going to build those connections, that's going to host events or like discuss things in forums or lead focus groups and be talking to that community, whatever your definition of that is in, day in, day out. And so you need a resource, better yet, a team that's going to be able to do that. If you are three people in a business and you'll see I was going, we need a community that we're not going to hire and we're not going to really do anything about it, then you're probably not right to have a community and that just one of the focuses of the business.

 

Verity Hurd [00:34:05]:

Yeah, great answer. I think you're right. I think community, the definition means something different to a lot of people. I mean, what, what, what even is community now? Like, if you were to describe it, what would it be?

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:34:19]:

Yeah, but again, it's really down to every, every single everything, what their definition of it is. I think other if I'm really honest with myself, are there any brands? I genuinely feel like I am part of a community. Probably not. And, and I engage with brands in probably a different way than most people do. Even though I'm in brand and kind of see it from more of an objective point of view. But I think it's, you know, to each brand it's finding those people that are genuinely passionate about you. And I always like one of the great things that Vee because I genuinely think Veev due to Jamie and kind of her, at least initially down to Jane, Genevieve's kind of own following and own community. What I love about them is they facilitate the conversation but actually the community does half the work.

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:35:09]:

So our customer care team couldn't respond to comments quick enough because by the time someone had gone, oh, does this product work in this way or how should I use this? You've got 10 comments from different really passionate customers who are responding. And we kind of knew who our customers like. We knew our customers by name also sometimes than we did like influencers because we real passionate fans that probably don't fit into any of those three buckets that we discussed about from an influencer point of view. But they're the people that will respond to every single post. They will be the first person to buy a ticket when you do a masterclass. They will be buying every single product on the early access wait list. And they're the people that you need to be nurturing. So for me that's kind of who your community core community members are is like that they have influence but over you as a brand because they're showing up and they're being present or over their friends and family.

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:36:05]:

But that's one definition for V. For another brand the definition might be completely different. So I think it's having real clarity from leadership or from the function itself as to what, what does community mean to you before you even think about building one.

 

Verity Hurd [00:36:19]:

Yeah, I think you're right though. I think it also comes down like I don't think I could say I'm part of someone's community and that that's actually sometimes talk about it here at brand advocacy in terms of, well, would, would anyone say they're part of our community? No. Like if we were to walk into a room at an event and go are you part of the building run advocacy community? They'd be like, no. Like. And that's. Yeah, I think that's how I kind of not define it, but that's how I, that's where I would want to start. Like do they feel like they're actually part of something that we're doing? I just want to switch back to some of the. When you're talking about the insights that you get from like the community and the customers and I think a lot of brands talk about being customer centric and listening and having this two way dialogue.

 

Verity Hurd [00:37:01]:

But I don't think there's, you know, there's only so many brands that I can think of that I feel like truly listen to what their customers and community are saying. I just want to go back to what you were saying around sort of like customer insights and sort of like how you get that from your community as well. Because I think a lot of brands talk about being customer centric and there's only so many brands that I can think of now that are actually truly listening and actually actively doing something with it. But what have you seen work when it comes to turning customer insight into brand truth? And who do you think does this really well at the moment?

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:37:36]:

So I'm actually working on a brand at the moment which they are incredible. And they were literally born from customer insights. They're called Decipher and there's a big piece of work. What you see from Decipher now is not what you will see in the future. The proposition, absolutely, but there's a. One of the reasons under the brand is there's a kind of bit of an evolution happening, but they're effectively an AI powered beauty brand and the whole brand was built from consumer insight. So the two founders basically got frustrated with traditional beauty. So we had the Fenty effect a few years ago.

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:38:15]:

But at best you might have 40 foundations in a range. They're not inclusive. They say they're inclusive, but even like you or me could be probably lucky enough to find a shade that works, but it's probably not 100% right. And we have to compromise on undertone, overtone ever so slightly. We did a customer survey recently when 97% of people have worn the wrong foundation shade. They've just had to make it work, worn from that frustration of, of that consumer insight of why are we having to kind of just fit people in between numbers between 1 and 21 and 40 at best. They changed the game. So they literally created an AI tool and every single foundation is made on order to that person's skin tone.

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:39:00]:

So it's completely bespoke and made to you. But they took it one step further because consumer insight was telling them, well, if it's a matte foundation with a full coverage finish, and I'm a radiant, radiant finish foundation wearer and I like a lighter coverage, right, I've got my shade, but now the formula isn't right for me in terms of finish or coverage. So you can now bespoke your finish and your coverage as well as the shade. And I think that kind of feedback loop is something that decipher have all the time. So whenever there's reformulations, they go back to their customer and bring them on that journey. But not only the customers are buying the product, they actively go to the customer, customers that weren't satisfied the first time with the finish, the coverage, the shade, whatever it might be, and they go, we didn't get it right, but we're reworking on something now, we want you to try it. And I think that's quite rare because that customer could be lost in any other brand. Whereas for Decipher they're like, how can I bring them back? And again, it goes back to that community piece if they genuinely actively listen to what their feedback is.

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:40:01]:

And I think because the brand was born from consumer insight and wanting to put the customer first, it's not just you're going to settle for a product that is off the shelf. We are creating something bespoke for you that not only does a customer see themselves in the product because it is literally made for them, they see themselves in how the brand is developed because they're always seeking that feedback and always asking the community and the consumer what they think. So I've never seen a brand that I've worked on personally that actually actively invites experts, influencers, customers into the product development side of things. And that will always be something that's fundamental to Cypher because the brand was literally born from that consumer insight. So I think they are a brand that are small now. Not only are what they're doing kind of game changing and revolutionary, but I think that customer dialogue that they really want to hold true at every single step of the journey is something that's going to set them up for really long term success. Success.

 

Verity Hurd [00:41:02]:

Wow, that's super interesting. Have they been launched long?

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:41:07]:

Yeah, a few years. So it's one of those things. I think that the biggest challenge with Decipher is it sounds too good to be true. Sure, yeah, of course. And I think sadly there's other brands out there that present that they do what Decipher does and they don't a 50 shade foundation range that actually doesn't bespoke foundations. And I think people go, is it really going to work? Is it right for me? But also what I love about Cypher is they have something called a perfect match promise because they know that technology can only take you so far and that there is going to be error. So if you're not happy, they'll return it completely free of charge. Like you'll exchange it free of charge and you'll get to kind of rematch your shade and then you've got a human on the other side of it who is working with you, tweaking it.

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:41:54]:

Is it the coverage you didn't like, is it the finish, is it the shade? And you then get to kind of make that adapt free of charge. So I think that's probably the biggest barrier to Decipher is proofing it because it sounds too good to be true. But again, we've got amazing customers that on any Paid ads. Whenever anyone's like, yeah, sure, it's going to do that. They're like, no, no, no, it does. And they jump into the comment section before we're even able to as well.

 

Verity Hurd [00:42:19]:

Yeah. Oh, wow. I love it. I'm going to check it out. I'm going to switch gears slightly and I'm going to mention a past podcast guest, Beth Thomas, who is currently our most listened to episode ever, which she doesn't believe me when I tell her this, but is it. Is this Beth someone that you've worked with before?

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:42:39]:

Yes, me and Beth together years ago at Glossybox and she actually introduced me to Lowrie, who I was mentioning earlier. All three of us are Welsh, so it's not just a Welsh thing where kind of arming together. But I work with Beth at Glossy. No Birchbox. Too many boxes. I watched with Beth at Birchbox years ago and we are still very good friends now.

 

Verity Hurd [00:42:59]:

Okay, so Beth shouted you out on LinkedIn. As a person who asks all the right questions to grow and successfully lead a team, I want to know what are the questions marketers aren't asking enough honestly, why?

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:43:14]:

And I think when Beth very graciously and kindly said that comment, I think I replied to it. Saying why can be seen as a really confrontational question, even though it's not intended to be. And it has to be done with grace and decorum and our sensitively, absolutely. But I think the times that I've had pushback from asking why, and that could be loads of different whys. Why are we doing this? The obvious one, but why are we approaching it in this way? Why are we doing it now? Why would a customer care about it? I think it's just interrogating what we do as a business. And the times I've had pushback from asking why is probably because the people in the room can't answer that question. And I always say everyone in the room can answer that question. All, all asking why is giving us clarity.

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:44:04]:

It's not. It's not done to be like, why are we doing this? We shouldn't do it. It's just going, so why? Because we should all be able to answer that question. And if everyone in the brain can answer it, we're probably doing the right thing and we're on track. But what I find more often than not is people go, oh yeah, we just got told we had to do that, so we're doing it. And they don't really challenge positively why things are happening in the way that they are. If we could do things better. Sometimes it's, we need to get from A to B, so we're going to go the linear route.

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:44:35]:

Whereas sometimes just thinking about it slightly differently or focusing on things in a slightly different way might not be the quickest way of getting there, but it's going to have more impact where it's going to have better roi, whatever it might be. And I think good marketing doesn't come from having the answers, it comes from asking the right questions. And so I think all you're doing when you are getting clarity from a question is making sure that everyone's on the same page, that you're focusing, I guess, more on impact rather than output, because I think when you just get given a task and you just do it, you're focused on delivering the task, whereas when you interrogate why you're focused on it challenges you to think about the output. Are we doing this in the best way? Are we bringing the right people on board? Are we launching it at the right time? And it makes you think about whether the output of it is going to be better than if we just did it. So the biggest question I think marketeers can ask, or anyone really in a business can ask, is just why? And as a leader, for me, I love when someone asks me that, because it makes me go, oh, actually, do I know why we're doing this or can I confidently answer that question? And then you've got metrics. If you can say why we're doing it, then you've probably got KPIs and metrics that you can measure success from. If you can't answer that question, the next probably means that you don't have real clarity or direction as to why you're making a business decision, which makes it really hard to assess whether it was a good or a bad thing.

 

Verity Hurd [00:46:05]:

In the end, I love that I'm going to start asking why a lot more.

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:46:10]:

Okay. It's why I think and that I think. Yeah. Thinking about why we think a bit more, I feel like I've said why about 400 times.

 

Verity Hurd [00:46:20]:

I love it, though. I love it. Right, I'm going to end on one of our favourite questions, Coryn, which is how do you build brand advocacy?

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:46:29]:

So for me, it really starts with the team. So whenever I'm going into a team or I'm immersed in a team, it's really with that team. I remember Camila Craven, who I work with at Charlotte Tilbury, always said, advocacy starts at home. And it's something that I've taken with me to every single business that I have worked with. So thank you, Camila, for that, that soundbite. And she genuinely believes that an idt. And I think it kind of goes back to that point we're discussing at the beginning about that, that fire that the team has. I think, you know, I said it before, but if you as a team aren't passionate about what you were doing, if you're not waxing lyrical from the rooftops about your brand or your product or so passionate to be working in the team or for the brand, then I think you really have to ask yourselves why.

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:47:18]:

Bit of customer. If you're expecting customers want to believe in a brand and buy into brands that they've got an emotional connection with that makes them feel inspired or they learn from or it's fitting a purpose in their. In their life, they want that emotional connection more so than ever. And I think if you as a team aren't passionate about the brand, then there's no reason why your customers should be. And I think if you have that. That kind of passion, it's really. It's almost contagious. Right.

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:47:53]:

So I think if all of your team are talking about you and that's where you don't have to do egc, you don't have to do a directive to be like, can everyone talk about LinkedIn? They should be doing it because they love you so much. They should be all of my friends, their whole makeup bag now is feed. Because I was like, the product's incredible and you need it. So it just shows when you're passionate about a brand, it has this kind of ripple effect on customers. So the biggest way that I build a brand is by that kind of advocacy piece and making sure that all the team are living and breathing the brand every single day and are genuinely passionate about it. And if they're not, I think there's a question of, are they right? Are they the right fit for that brand, or is if your own team aren't passionate about you, then you're probably not doing something right. In which case, just to hurt all up, you can go back to those brand values and making sure that you are being purposeful and kind of staying true to your goal.

 

Verity Hurd [00:48:44]:

Yeah, two things there as well. I would want to shout out Camilla Craven, the queen of advocacy, and the Vive Primer, the best primer I've ever used. So.

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:48:56]:

And it is like, the product is amazing. The team are incredible there. So it's like the easiest brand to be advocating for. And I'm really lucky, like, I being in brand. I have to be passionate about the brands that I'm working. Like, I am the brand guardian. At the end of the day, that is my role. So I really cannot work for brands I don't genuinely love and believe in.

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:49:19]:

But that's easier for me than if you're someone that's just working in finance. You know, that sometimes can be a bit more of a functional or a transactional role. So I think the sign of a really good brand is when teams that aren't living and breathing, like marketing or social or whatever it might be, are still super, super passionate. And Charlotte Tilbury and Fe are the two strongest, best kind of examples of that that I've ever had in my career.

 

Verity Hurd [00:49:42]:

Brilliant. Coryn, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much. If anyone wanted to get in touch with you, where would. Where would be the best place?

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:49:48]:

LinkedIn. So I've got a very unusual name, so there is only one of me, I think, in the world. So, yeah, Coryn Brisbane. And you can find me on LinkedIn.

 

Verity Hurd [00:49:56]:

Awesome. Thank you so much. I loved it.

 

Coryn Brisbane [00:49:59]:

Me too. Thank you so much.

 

Paul Archer [00:50:03]:

That was another episode of Building Brand as Advocacy, the world's top brand building podcast. To find out more about Building Brand Advocacy and how this podcast is part of a bigger plan for our Brand Building Cookbook. Then make sure to search for Building Brand Advocacy in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or anywhere else that podcasts are fine. And make sure that you click subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes. Thanks to Juul for sponsoring. To find out more, go to ww.duel.tech, that's D U E L. And on behalf of the team here at Building Brand Advocacy, thanks for listening.