Verity Hurd [00:00:00]:
Can we make it go viral by Friday?
Gabriel Gomez [00:00:02]:
Who's saying that? Me. If I said that it can be green flag, would you say that? No, I have said that. I have said that and it hasn't worked. And. But that. That's my version of manifesting. But I think if. If you're getting that from someone outside of the social team.
Gabriel Gomez [00:00:18]:
Red flag.
Verity Hurd [00:00:19]:
Yeah, yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:00:19]:
Red flag.
Paul Archer [00:00:20]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:00:20]:
If it's within the social team and it's like kind of like fun and games. Like, I mean, I say that after every post that we post. I'm like, this is going to go viral and never does. Yeah, but I. I never actually mean it. But, yeah, if an executive is asking that, that's a red flag.
Paul Archer [00:00:45]:
Have you ever wondered why some brands grow exponentially, building legions of passionate fans that live and die by their logos and some. Well, don't. I do all the time, and that's probably because I'm a massive brand nerd. But I believe there's a secret sauce at the core of every remarkable brand. A formula that sparks the growth of passionate communities of superfans, building a business and a reputation that will last for years to come. My name is Paul Archer and I'm a specialist in brand advocacy and word of mouth, having consulted for hundreds of brands on a topic.
Verity Hurd [00:01:19]:
Hey, it's Verity here, your co host of the Building Brand Advocacy podcast.
Paul Archer [00:01:23]:
In this podcast, we tap into the greatest marketing minds in the world. They share the exact tactics and strategies used to build the world's greatest brands, dropping actionable insights every brand builder can apply.
Verity Hurd [00:01:34]:
We've got some incredible guests coming up, sharing insights and tips that can truly shift the marketing landscape. If you want to be the first to hear, make sure you hit that follow button. The more people following the show, the bigger and better we can make it. So if you're loving what you hear, don't forget to follow and spread the word. Thanks again for listening. It really means a lot. I hope you enjoy this next episode.
Paul Archer [00:01:57]:
It's time to learn and Build Brand Advocacy.
Verity Hurd [00:02:01]:
Hello and welcome to Building Brand Advocacy Today. I am super excited and I've been waiting to have this conversation for a long time. But today we welcome Gabe Gomez. Hello.
Gabriel Gomez [00:02:12]:
Hi. I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for working on my schedule. It's annoying.
Verity Hurd [00:02:17]:
No, you're a very busy guy. But do you want to just let. I don't think you need an introduction, but if you want to just give our listeners a little intro into who you are and what you do.
Gabriel Gomez [00:02:27]:
Definitely. Yes, I. My name is Gabe Gomez, as just mentioned, I am the head of social for Em Co Beauty us, one of Australia's largest cosmetics brand that recently expanded into the U.S. i also, I guess I'm a LinkedIn creator. I hate sort of self labelling myself as that, but I post relatable memes about working in social media marketing.
Verity Hurd [00:02:47]:
I love them.
Gabriel Gomez [00:02:48]:
Thank you. Thank you. And, and you know, the content creation piece has been so fun because no one else has to look at it and I can just approve it myself and just post and, and if it's funny I can, I can do it. And it's been like freeing and creative in that way. So it's been really fun.
Verity Hurd [00:03:05]:
I love it. And you are everywhere at the moment. So congrats.
Gabriel Gomez [00:03:09]:
Yeah. I mean the random floating faces on billboards in New York has, has been a nice treat, an unexpected one. But. But it's been fun.
Verity Hurd [00:03:16]:
Okay. Right. Let's get stuck into it because OB are living and breathing social and in terms of like MCO beauty, like you've obviously built a bit of a cult following but the beauty space is a, a noisy category. So how do you kind of like go beyond just being liked on Social and how do you go about building that brand love?
Gabriel Gomez [00:03:37]:
That's, that's a great question. I, I think it's a sort of a two sided coin. Like beauty is really saturated but also there's like a lot of folks who are obsessed with the beauty space too. So I think if you do it right, you can attract a lot of attention because for example, Emco Beauty prides itself on creating luxury quality cosmetics for a really accessible price point.
Verity Hurd [00:03:59]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:03:59]:
And there are a lot of folks who are on the, on the hunt for that. For example, hashtag Duponthers on TikTok. 6 billion views within that sort of hashtag and within that community. So that was like a bit of a signal to us to say if we show up in this space in a way that feels accessible, entertaining and sort of like cutting the velvet rope that sort of feels like is in the beauty space sometimes. Right. With like the higher end brands where it almost feels like too exclusive of a price point to join in on, on some of the cult products or even in, in the community building that they do. Yeah, EMCO is sort of the antithesis of that. And so we basically zig when they zag.
Gabriel Gomez [00:04:38]:
Let people let everyone sort of feel like they can be part of a new cult and we do it through fun content, through experiences and through the right creator partners as well.
Verity Hurd [00:04:46]:
I've been as particularly over the last days, I've been hearing a lot around sort of like brands moving away from sort of talking around the product and definitely almost kind of like, I mean, I've always said this, like, not every trend is right for every brand. But over the last few days I've really learned and heard from brands sort of saying that they're tapping into cultural moments now and it's not necessarily about the trend, but like just what's happening in the world. How, how are you kind of like training your team and sort of like structuring the team to help them tap in and predict those cultural moments that are going to work for you?
Gabriel Gomez [00:05:20]:
I mean, that's a million dollar question. I think, you know, on social, it's hard, it's, it's a bit of a muscle.
Verity Hurd [00:05:27]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:05:28]:
Because when you're leaving the office, maybe your brain isn't like really necessarily like looking out for opportunities when you're scrolling on TikTok or X or Instagram, for example. So I think that's typically like step one, when, when it, when you know, when you're saying, how do you train the team? It's sort of like just be conscious of, of what you're consuming outside of work too, because that could trigger one of the best idea, some of the best ideas. And personally, a lot of the best creative work I feel like our team and past teams I've worked with have done has come outside of like the 9 to 5. You know, when, when you're taking a walk and you're remembering a funny joke or a relatable experience or something. But I think that's sort of step one and in terms of team structure, I mean, we're pretty small social team. Our team is growing, which is really exciting. But, but for now it really is, you know, myself, our cmo Meredith, is super plugged into culture and we're just texting all the time, like, what's happening? And our social media manager is incredible. So between the three of us, we're like the like culture vultures.
Gabriel Gomez [00:06:30]:
Like just culture flying around like Instagram. You're like, well, what's happening? What can we do? But it's also kind of beneficial for it to be a smaller team because we can act so fast. It's, it's tough. Like I've been in situations where it's 10 people are involved and you can't really land it in the right time. So pros and cons. But having a tight team and being able to move quickly has been super critical.
Verity Hurd [00:06:55]:
Yeah, I mean, that's something else. A big conversation I've also been hearing is that you have to move at speed now because you'll just kind of get left behind. And it's almost like you have to kind of build that infrastructure as well and have the team that are sort of living and breathing it, but are online more than you'd ever really imagine. To be able to pick up on those moments but then be able to turn it around quick enough. So it's super relevant.
Gabriel Gomez [00:07:18]:
Yeah.
Verity Hurd [00:07:19]:
And it's really good to hear that obviously your CMO is in it as well. Yeah, that's great.
Gabriel Gomez [00:07:24]:
It's been really wonderful because, you know, it depends on the type of leaders and the type of culture the organisation has. But again, like when we first started or we. When we first launched EMCO late last year, one of the, one of the bigger moments we had was like crashing the Timothy Chalamet lookalike competition. We brought our own dupe and he was decked out in EMCO and was, you know, walking around the Emko bag and that idea. Everything was approved in the text in five minutes. Like I was like, what if we crash this contest? And our CMO is like, yes, exclamation mark. And so we were kind of just like off to the races. So that's like another thing that's so critical.
Gabriel Gomez [00:08:04]:
It's like let don't weigh the team down with approvals or, or emails or decks. Like if you have the trust and you can press go.
Verity Hurd [00:08:13]:
Yeah, go. Yeah, yeah. How do you kind of balance the sort of, the short term viral moments with the sort of like long term strategy piece?
Gabriel Gomez [00:08:23]:
That's a, that's a good, that's a good question. I think making sure the short term spikes still ladder up or back into core brand values. So for, for emco, again, like big on the dupe space, so we duped someone or bringing luxury to more people is also a big sort of value for the brand. So if there's a moment in time where we can hear that through like a really fun way to us that, that checks the boxes of like balancing, like we're still representing what the brand's about and you know, participating in something that's cool and not just like selling a lip peptide on Instagram.
Verity Hurd [00:09:06]:
I noticed you mentioned that the team is a small team which is obviously working but still growing. How do you work cross functionally? Because I think this is a sort of like with the social and marketing teams, like we, we're starting to feel that we need to work a lot more Cross functionally. Now, like, how does that look like for you?
Gabriel Gomez [00:09:24]:
I think it depends on the situation, but my working style is like, bringing everyone along for the ride. So, you know, I'm not. If an idea comes to mind or we settle on. On a place we should show up, everyone's sort of involved right away, versus, like, bringing someone in in the last minute as. As someone who's worked in Social, like, eight years, which is. I don't know, time flies, but many times. So the social team is brought in, like, at the last minute. Yeah, actually.
Gabriel Gomez [00:09:51]:
And I know a lot of people when we talk about that on LinkedIn, everyone's like, I can relate to that. So I. I don't know if it's just, like, work trauma, but I just try to do the exact opposite. And. And whoever needs to be involved, like, let's involve them from day one. And you like the ideas that. The best ideas don't have to come from the CMO or the directors. Like, some of the best ideas we've had have also come from folks who've just started on the team.
Verity Hurd [00:10:13]:
Nice.
Gabriel Gomez [00:10:14]:
So if, when you bring folks along, you're, like, getting the best out of, you know, out of the moment.
Verity Hurd [00:10:18]:
Eight years. I mean, you said it. It flies. But so much will have changed in those eight years when it comes to social.
Gabriel Gomez [00:10:25]:
Yeah. Too much. Too much.
Verity Hurd [00:10:30]:
I'm just gonna go off piece a little bit here in terms of, like, on a personal level, like, how do you balance that? Because, like, we have to. We have to keep up. But, you know, because it does feel like you go to the toilet and you come back and something's changed on Social, like, there's a new feature or an alpha change. Like, how do you personally, like, just balance it all.
Gabriel Gomez [00:10:48]:
I would love to answer this question, be like, I'm perfect and I can bounce it, but, like, it's really hard. And I don't. Between you know, being a leader for my. For my team on amco and also LinkedIn creator, like, finding the balance is, like, really hard, actually. And there are some days where I just, like, I can't. Where I, like, chuck the phone away for a little bit and just, like, read a book or go for a walk. And I think that's okay, too. When we talk about balance, I think you're at your best when you're feeling your best.
Gabriel Gomez [00:11:19]:
So for me, balance is sometimes knowing when to take a step back. And if I miss a big update, I miss a big update. But that's the perks of having a team as well, so I, I'd say you can, you can balance it by listening to, to how you're feeling and also making sure that you build a culture where folks are like sharing amongst themselves. So even if you're sort of like not around or not feeling at your best, you can achieve that balance through the people that you're like working with.
Verity Hurd [00:11:49]:
Yeah. Okay. I want to get a little bit specific around the strategy and what that actually looks like on a day to day basis. Do you have any sort of like rituals or weird rules that keep the team aligned and focused?
Gabriel Gomez [00:12:04]:
That's a really, really good question. I'd say, you know, strategically, again, the, the pros of having a tight team is that we are in lockstep and so we can say here's our strategy and we can all sort of quickly align and do it. But I think I, I'm actually personally in my like, ditch the playbook era and I think it's really important actually in social if, if you establish a strategy to also make sure it's malleable enough. Not, not necessarily saying you have to screw the brand, like don't screw the brand values, but if, if you want to go off script and if a moment for entertaining content or a spike for your brand is like going a bit off of the playbook that you maybe like built a month ago.
Verity Hurd [00:12:50]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:12:50]:
To your point, like social changes all the time. I think if you have a strategy that feels malleable enough, you're. You can go off script. And that's like how I've worked it in. So like, I guess like our rear weird rule is f the playbook sometimes if you need to.
Verity Hurd [00:13:04]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:13:05]:
And that's okay as long as, you know, we talk about it and make sure, you know, still, still make sure it's, it's, you know, you, you pressure test it.
Verity Hurd [00:13:13]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:13:13]:
But then if do it.
Verity Hurd [00:13:15]:
Yeah. You almost need that little bit of chaos now, I think.
Gabriel Gomez [00:13:18]:
Yeah.
Verity Hurd [00:13:18]:
In a social space. And I heard something the other day and it was like we're in this attention economy now, which I thought was like a really nice way to kind of sort of describe the era that we're in when it comes to social because, you know, we're, we're almost like where we're doom scrolling a lot of the time and it takes a lot to kind of like take us out of that, I think.
Gabriel Gomez [00:13:38]:
Yeah.
Verity Hurd [00:13:39]:
So brands that are open to kind of like you said, like saying fuck you to the playbook just for a moment tap into it, then they're the ones that are going to stand out. Right.
Gabriel Gomez [00:13:49]:
If you look at all the brands to your point, like the attention economy, like the brands who are getting the most attention, you have to stop the scroll.
Verity Hurd [00:13:57]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:13:58]:
And by doing that, you have to do some, something that either feels, I don't know if absurd is the right word, but something that feels fresh and new coming from brand. Whether it's like a change, a drastic change in the tone or a drastic change in how you approach creative. Whether it's like, instead of putting out this commercial, we're gonna attach our GoPro to a new York pigeon and see if it finds, like, our brand's breadcrumbs in the streets. Like, I don't know. And like, live stream it, like, do something that feels, feels exciting. A good, like, litmus test is like, if I'm excited about it.
Verity Hurd [00:14:31]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:14:31]:
And if I'm like, I, would I watch this? Would I share this with a friend that tends to really help us be like, this is a really fun idea and we should, and we should do it.
Verity Hurd [00:14:39]:
I love it.
Gabriel Gomez [00:14:40]:
Yeah.
Verity Hurd [00:14:40]:
Creator economy. You obviously work with creators. You're a creator yourself.
Gabriel Gomez [00:14:44]:
Yeah.
Verity Hurd [00:14:44]:
And I'm going to ask a question which may sound really stupid.
Gabriel Gomez [00:14:47]:
I can't wait.
Verity Hurd [00:14:48]:
But I feel, I feel like the term creator, like, who, what even is a creator anymore? Because, like, is it the brand? Is it a founder? Is it an agency? Like, I don't know, there's just, there's so many. What? How would you kind of pinpoint?
Gabriel Gomez [00:15:05]:
I know, I mean, that's, that's a really good question. I, I, I don't know. Am I gonna get cancelled for this? I don't think so. Like, I think we all know anyone can be a creator, I guess, like, period. But there's also definitely some sort of signals as to creators who've built community. And I think maybe that's sort of the difference. Right. Like creators who create and post and maybe they do it for fun or maybe they're trying to, to start a business or just like share a hobby and share a passion.
Verity Hurd [00:15:40]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:15:40]:
That's still a creator. But then I think there are creators that have actual communities around them. And then that's, I guess, just like maybe a different level of creator that's not necessarily better or worse. I think there are people who just want to create and share what they love on the Internet. And that's cool. And you're a creator, but maybe that's not the type of creator your brand wants to work with. Maybe if your brand is building community, build us, you know, Build it with creators who have community.
Verity Hurd [00:16:08]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:16:09]:
Or maybe work with creators who, like, make cool content. They could, like, both be it.
Verity Hurd [00:16:12]:
Right. Yeah, I like that definition. We're going to have to, like, dig into that, I think, off. Off this.
Gabriel Gomez [00:16:18]:
Yeah, yeah, we can. I think, like creator. Because at first it was influencers and everyone was using the word influencers, but now there's like, also the difference between influencers and creators.
Verity Hurd [00:16:30]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:16:30]:
Like, they're. They're. At least my team uses it in different ways too. But then in past teams, they've also had their own definition. So I think everyone's sort of like, making it up as they go as well.
Verity Hurd [00:16:42]:
We kind of have to, I think.
Gabriel Gomez [00:16:43]:
Yeah.
Verity Hurd [00:16:44]:
In this space.
Gabriel Gomez [00:16:45]:
Yeah.
Verity Hurd [00:16:45]:
And on that, sort of like the whole micro versus macro. What's your current point of view on that? And I suppose, like, to be more sort of, like, specific, how do you kind of build that layered funnel with the, like, working across the whole creator space?
Gabriel Gomez [00:17:00]:
Yeah. I mean, personally. Not personally, but I think there are the right creators for the right moments.
Verity Hurd [00:17:06]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:17:06]:
And so if you're trying to build community and mass awareness, obviously you want folks with a larger audience. But what's really interesting now is on social, like, you could have 10 followers and your video can go viral, or you can have 10 followers one week and then a million the next, which we. Which we've seen happen a lot too. So I think it depends on what your objective is. One strategy that we've. What we've adopted is really being on the lookout for emerging creators.
Verity Hurd [00:17:33]:
Nice.
Gabriel Gomez [00:17:33]:
And so if we see someone, like, starting to skyrocket all of a sudden, like, that's definitely someone on the radar because they are just discovering their voice on social. They're making content that feels exciting that people are excited about.
Verity Hurd [00:17:46]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:17:47]:
I think her name was, like, Sydney, the group Chat Creek.
Verity Hurd [00:17:50]:
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was so good.
Gabriel Gomez [00:17:52]:
Took off, like, overnight. And I. I do tune in with a bag of popcorn.
Verity Hurd [00:17:56]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:17:57]:
And watch the episodes. And I'm commenting like, I can't believe this. Can't wait for the next episode. So folks like that get us really excited. And I think that also ties back to, like, the attention economy. Like, those people own it.
Verity Hurd [00:18:09]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:18:09]:
And so if you can, if it makes sense, get in there.
Verity Hurd [00:18:12]:
Yeah, yeah. When you find the. The right creators to work with, like, how do you sort of. I don't want to say treat them. That sound doesn't sound right. But do you bring them in as sort of like internal collaborators or are they still, like, external, like I don't know, sort of like an external part.
Gabriel Gomez [00:18:28]:
Of the team for, for us more recently, we've tried to make it a bit more open. Not a bit more open, much more open creatively. So while we might have an idea of how to work with someone. Yeah, we, I, I personally love to get on the call and be like, hey, here are like three ideas that we have. But what do you think? We worked with like Olive oil girl.
Verity Hurd [00:18:49]:
Yeah, nice.
Gabriel Gomez [00:18:51]:
Megan. And she was great. And we brainstormed the idea with her.
Verity Hurd [00:18:55]:
Nice.
Gabriel Gomez [00:18:55]:
Because again, like, they're, they know their, their audience the best. They are creators for creators for a reason. Whether it's like crazy stories from their child. You know what I mean? Like, whatever it is. So, so they know best. I think sometimes when brands force their point of view can be good sometimes. But then other times it feels too scripted, then you like, sort of miss.
Verity Hurd [00:19:15]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:19:15]:
And so I think bringing them in as like consultants to their own content or just like hearing them.
Verity Hurd [00:19:22]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:19:22]:
Is super critical.
Verity Hurd [00:19:24]:
Yeah, you're so right. They do know their audience best. And I feel like we've, we've moved so far when it comes to like working with the, like, creators because, you know, it used to be such scripted briefs. Obviously now that's not the case and we're seeing that they're being, they're being brought in as almost sort of like creative directors in some cases. Like, where do you sort of see it going next with.
Gabriel Gomez [00:19:46]:
Ooh. I mean, I, I think I would actually love for it to continue on that path and maybe like expand.
Verity Hurd [00:19:53]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:19:53]:
Where, where, you know, if, if you want to make, if brands like make their own content houses.
Verity Hurd [00:19:59]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:19:59]:
And then you hire creators and like, they're in charge of like, the content the content house creates or like it's, or it's a collaboration. Like, I think that could be really interesting. Or maybe brands bring them on on a retainer basis and they're like, what's content that's gonna like, get people's attention? Because I think when you're too close, when you know, I'm cooking in the MCO kitchen and I'm like, this, this is good that we've done this before. You know, like, let's stick to the always on bit, like the ba stuff.
Verity Hurd [00:20:28]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:20:28]:
But then when you bring on creators, like, I think they can really shake things up, which is in a good way. So I think it will move in that direction at least. I'd like to see it move in that direction for sure.
Verity Hurd [00:20:38]:
I think as well, like, you know, you saying, obviously you've got a smaller team. And I think even for brands that are starting out, they, they should really rely on the creators in that sense. Because if they don't have the resource internally to kind of help them tap into the moments and know what's. And kind of turning content around for them, like, they must be such an asset for them.
Gabriel Gomez [00:20:57]:
Absolutely.
Verity Hurd [00:20:58]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:20:58]:
Yeah. And I mean, these people are. I mean, we're chronically online as marketers, but like they're chronically online posting, reading their comments, like, they're also really, really close to. Maybe closer to it than marketers are because I don't know, I'm answering emails, I'm like, yeah, doing the emoji buttons in the team's calls, but I'm not in the DMS and not really always seeing what people would think would be feel.
Verity Hurd [00:21:20]:
So you definitely notice when the, when the creator kind of treats it like an art form for their career and really kind of taking it to the next level. And also when they can still, then I hate to say the word, but when they do it in an authentic way. We need a new word.
Gabriel Gomez [00:21:35]:
Let's make it up. I'll have a brainstorm about like the new. The new authentic.
Verity Hurd [00:21:40]:
Okay. Right. We're going to switch things up. Oh, we're going to play a little game.
Gabriel Gomez [00:21:45]:
I love games. Only when I win. If I lose, I actually don't like the games.
Verity Hurd [00:21:50]:
So I'm gonna throw some creator and brand scenarios at you.
Gabriel Gomez [00:21:54]:
Okay.
Verity Hurd [00:21:55]:
And you tell me red flag or green flag.
Gabriel Gomez [00:21:57]:
Okay.
Verity Hurd [00:21:58]:
Okay. We can flags.
Gabriel Gomez [00:22:00]:
Yeah.
Verity Hurd [00:22:01]:
We can earn some bonus points for. Yeah, Extra drama.
Gabriel Gomez [00:22:05]:
Amazing. Amazing.
Verity Hurd [00:22:06]:
Okay. A brand dms. Hey, babe, love your vibe.
Gabriel Gomez [00:22:12]:
I think I've done that. So I'm gonna say green flag. And. And I'm gonna say, actually, sometimes creators don't have their contact information and we can't find them. And actually some of our best partnerships have come from like olive oil actually have come from dms. So there's a time and place. There is, but if you have the email, don't. Hey, babes.
Gabriel Gomez [00:22:34]:
You know what I mean?
Verity Hurd [00:22:36]:
I've also done that myself. I had a social media agency before this and I've also been in the DM saying, hey, babe, I love your vibe.
Gabriel Gomez [00:22:45]:
Yeah, that's right. Evil for sure.
Verity Hurd [00:22:46]:
Okay. A creator pitches a brand by saying, I've manifested this for months.
Gabriel Gomez [00:22:51]:
Wow. I mean, if I got that, like, okay, I'm. I'm sitting at my MCO computer. We get that from like olive oil girl or something. Sick.
Verity Hurd [00:23:01]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:23:01]:
I Manifested this for months. It's not a dm. Or is. Could be whatever. If it's a dm, I'd still be excited.
Verity Hurd [00:23:09]:
I was gonna say, would it really matter if it was a DM or an email?
Gabriel Gomez [00:23:12]:
Yeah, I'm green flag it for sure. Yeah. If someone's like, I've been manifest for months and, like, were equally as excited.
Verity Hurd [00:23:17]:
Green flag bonus points if they send a vision board that proves that they've been manifesting this.
Gabriel Gomez [00:23:22]:
Triple flag. Triple green flag. Love it. I mean, and that goes back to your creators as creatives thing. Yeah, I would love.
Verity Hurd [00:23:30]:
Yeah. Okay. An influencer deletes negative comments to protect a brand. Deal.
Gabriel Gomez [00:23:35]:
I'm gonna say it depends, but. But I think red flag large. And I tell you why, because that backfires. How many times have you seen the girlies riot more when they notice the comments are being deleted? Yeah, almost always.
Verity Hurd [00:23:51]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:23:52]:
So. So I think it is a red flag. I think if you want to protect the brand, let's work together to come up with the appropriate response. If there is one for. For this scenario. Right. Like, if what? Depending on what the claims are, whatever the. The conversation is.
Gabriel Gomez [00:24:04]:
So I. I think a lot of creators jump to deleting it to, like, protect their partnership, but actually it's. It's much better if we just work together. Leave the comments up.
Verity Hurd [00:24:13]:
The comment section is a whole new strategy piece, right?
Gabriel Gomez [00:24:16]:
Totally.
Verity Hurd [00:24:17]:
I mean, it's like, you know, we want to get in there and the brands are using it and creators are using this space to kind of really show up and also use it to show their personality and, you know, kind of deliver it. Deliver something on another level. And I also think negative comments, if you write, like, if. If they're worked well, that will turn into a positive.
Gabriel Gomez [00:24:39]:
Also, it's okay if someone's like, this sucks.
Verity Hurd [00:24:43]:
You cannot please everybody.
Gabriel Gomez [00:24:45]:
No, I've learned that eight years ago, my first social media job.
Verity Hurd [00:24:48]:
Okay, that's our story that we may want to dig into later.
Gabriel Gomez [00:24:53]:
Yeah.
Verity Hurd [00:24:55]:
Okay. A brief asks for exact script caption and emojis.
Gabriel Gomez [00:25:01]:
Red flag. I would never do that. And I'm sorry if. If I've done that to anyone in the past.
Verity Hurd [00:25:08]:
Call him out.
Gabriel Gomez [00:25:09]:
Yeah. In the comments.
Verity Hurd [00:25:10]:
Yeah. A creator reshoots a video four times because their hair doesn't look right.
Gabriel Gomez [00:25:15]:
I mean, I. I'm gonna green flag it, I guess. Personally, I was complaining about my hair just moments ago before we started recording. So I think. I think I'm gonna green flag it with a caveat that, like, you're not interrupting timelines, you know, I mean, it's not, like, disruptive to, like, the work.
Verity Hurd [00:25:34]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:25:35]:
But, like, you're the owner, you know, I mean, it's. It's your channel, babes. You want your hair to look good.
Verity Hurd [00:25:40]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:25:40]:
If a million people are going to see it.
Verity Hurd [00:25:41]:
Exactly. Okay. A brand offers $50 and a lipstick for three TikToks and two stories, $50. And.
Gabriel Gomez [00:25:52]:
I think. I think there are a lot of. I'm. Is there, like, a yellow flag? I think it depends, actually. Some creators earn commission, some creators get gifted products. I think, like, the value of the $50, like, if it's like, hey, you're growing your audience. Here's free product, here's an Uber to come to, like, our event, like, come and post. But I think if it's, like, contracted and you're a creator who's working hard and, like, that's your full time, then red flag.
Verity Hurd [00:26:19]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:26:20]:
But I think if, like, the brand is like, we'll cover your expenses and you're not obligated to post, but here's the product and, like, here's the transportation. Like, that could be a green flag.
Verity Hurd [00:26:28]:
So I spoke to someone yesterday, actually, who was in influencer marketing, and she was saying that this topic about how. How much people are. The influencers are getting paid. She was like, it's such a dark space. It is dark, you know, because it goes from, you know, she was saying she gets quotes for just Outrageous. Yeah, for not that much.
Gabriel Gomez [00:26:48]:
Yeah.
Verity Hurd [00:26:49]:
In terms of, like, deliverables. And then also she'll have a creative kind of pitch and she'll be like, no, babes, you can do more than that. You can offer me more.
Gabriel Gomez [00:26:57]:
Yeah.
Verity Hurd [00:26:57]:
And it's like, why are we still here in 2025 where it's. Where it's such a dark space. Surely we need more transparency around this, right?
Gabriel Gomez [00:27:04]:
I think so. And I mean, on LinkedIn, like, I've seen it here and there where especially, like, black creators getting paid less than white creator, like, doing the exact same thing, I think, like, that's. That's a huge issue. And I think also brands need to be more accountable. Like, if you can't afford it, don't do it. Or find another way. Find another way to do it. Be like, put on more events where you invite creators, and it's like a mutually beneficial.
Gabriel Gomez [00:27:28]:
Like, they get a fun experience. Like, they're gonna post about it, but I think it's only gonna bite you in the butt. How many times have creators posted, calling brands out, being like, I got paid 50 in a lipstick for this.
Verity Hurd [00:27:39]:
Yeah, big one. Ooh, can we make it go viral by Friday?
Gabriel Gomez [00:27:43]:
Who's saying that? Me. If I said that it can be green flag, would you say that? No, I have said that. I have said that and it hasn't worked. And. But that. That's my version of manifesting. But I think if, if you're getting that from someone outside of the social team. Red flag.
Gabriel Gomez [00:28:00]:
Yeah, yeah, Red flag.
Verity Hurd [00:28:01]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:28:02]:
If it's in. If it's within the social team and it's like kind of like fun and games. Like, I mean, I say that after every post that we post, I'm like, this is going to go viral and never does.
Verity Hurd [00:28:11]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:28:11]:
But I never actually mean it. But yeah, if an executive is asking.
Verity Hurd [00:28:16]:
That, that's a like 100 agree. It's actually amazing, isn't it, when people don't work in social or in the marketing team but still feel that they know exactly how everything works.
Gabriel Gomez [00:28:27]:
I know.
Verity Hurd [00:28:28]:
Because we're out there. Right? They can see everything.
Gabriel Gomez [00:28:30]:
They can see it.
Verity Hurd [00:28:31]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:28:32]:
The pros and cons. I mean. Yeah, whatever.
Verity Hurd [00:28:35]:
Okay.
Gabriel Gomez [00:28:36]:
Yeah.
Verity Hurd [00:28:36]:
Ig. Ig. Ig.
Gabriel Gomez [00:28:38]:
Ig.
Verity Hurd [00:28:39]:
Ig.
Gabriel Gomez [00:28:40]:
Love ig.
Verity Hurd [00:28:41]:
Instagram. Close Friends.
Gabriel Gomez [00:28:43]:
Yeah.
Verity Hurd [00:28:43]:
Use as an exclusive product drop zone.
Gabriel Gomez [00:28:46]:
I'm gonna green. Is this a weed flag?
Verity Hurd [00:28:48]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:28:51]:
I'm gonna green flag it. I'm gonna green flag it. I think, like, exclusivity can be fun and I think if it's like an opt in, don't make it toxic though. Don't be like, you have. If you can only be on Close Friends. If, like, I don't know, you bought like a thousand dollars. You know what I mean? Like, but if it feels like really fun, like, like just like a group chat, like, I think, I think that could be a green flag.
Verity Hurd [00:29:12]:
Yeah. We've seen some great successes with brands doing that.
Gabriel Gomez [00:29:15]:
It's true. Billie Eilish did that one time too, but I wasn't her close friend. So sad.
Verity Hurd [00:29:19]:
No. Yeah. I heard a talk with the Mac cosmetics and they said that they did it, but they had to do it manually. Only Billie Eilish got the privilege of Instagram doing it for her.
Gabriel Gomez [00:29:30]:
Oh, I'll reach out to her reps about that one.
Verity Hurd [00:29:34]:
Okay, last one. Tick tock. Live shopping with no script, just vibes.
Gabriel Gomez [00:29:38]:
Whoa. Okay. This is a major green flag, but maybe others would say red flag. I really want to actually do exactly that. But. But have some sort of like, run of show.
Verity Hurd [00:29:50]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:29:51]:
Where like, we're gonna talk about these three Things and wing it.
Verity Hurd [00:29:55]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:29:55]:
If it goes wrong, play into it. I don't know. No one needs to know. It's not. You know what I mean? Who's gonna know who?
Verity Hurd [00:30:01]:
So in terms of. I'm gonna go back to. We're not playing the game anymore.
Gabriel Gomez [00:30:05]:
Yeah.
Verity Hurd [00:30:05]:
But on that conversation, how did TikTok Lives work for you guys? Like, is it a full on script then? At the moment we haven't. Okay.
Gabriel Gomez [00:30:15]:
We haven't done TikTok lives yet. I have actually in my, in my previous roles at Verizon, we did do a really awesome TikTok live during the eclipse and that was really fun. And Verizon's network powered this telescope.
Verity Hurd [00:30:27]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:30:27]:
Fanatics like Stream.
Verity Hurd [00:30:28]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:30:29]:
And it was sick. No script, just vibes.
Verity Hurd [00:30:32]:
Just.
Gabriel Gomez [00:30:32]:
And it was fine. Also like the script was like, there's an eclipse happening.
Verity Hurd [00:30:35]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:30:36]:
So like, whatever. But for. For TikTok, we're. We're talking TikTok and MCO. We're talking a lot about lives as part of our sort of next phase on social. And I'm not, I'm not kind of scripted. I'm gonna like have her on a show, but I'm gonna be like creators, like create.
Verity Hurd [00:30:55]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:30:56]:
Don't. Don't curse. No.
Verity Hurd [00:30:58]:
Okay.
Gabriel Gomez [00:30:58]:
No, no, no.
Verity Hurd [00:30:59]:
Why we want to see you on the.
Gabriel Gomez [00:31:01]:
- I think like I'd make it about me and it's not about me.
Verity Hurd [00:31:07]:
You know, it's good that you can be honest about it.
Gabriel Gomez [00:31:09]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Verity Hurd [00:31:10]:
And okay, so let's. We obviously can't. You know, we're. You're in social. We got to talk about the platforms in terms of like the ones that you guys are using, which, you know, across pinterest, Instagram, TikTok, LinkedIn. Which one is. Do you think is driving the most kind of advocacy for you right now?
Gabriel Gomez [00:31:28]:
Definitely TikTok.
Verity Hurd [00:31:29]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:31:29]:
And it goes back to the whole, like I think that the types of community built on there and I don't know if it's because the platform's user experience like lets people feel that way. I'm not sure why there's like the science behind why people flock to a certain platform. But TikTok, like the do punters on TikTok are. Are alive and well.
Verity Hurd [00:31:49]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:31:51]:
And being there is just kind of like the right place. It works. It works on Instagram as well. But we're not on Instagram. We see more loyalists in the beauty space anyway.
Verity Hurd [00:32:01]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:32:02]:
Where. Where folks are more sceptical. But on TikTok people are just so much more accepting and excited about what MCO has to offer and about the content. So, so for us, TikTok is definitely the space where we're, where it doesn't feel like we're going against the grain, if that makes sense. Like, it feels like we're like, welcome to the party.
Verity Hurd [00:32:19]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:32:19]:
Yeah.
Verity Hurd [00:32:19]:
And what about. Is Pinterest in that? LinkedIn.
Gabriel Gomez [00:32:22]:
Pinterest is in there. It's our Australian counterparts actually have a Pinterest page. We're exploring it.
Verity Hurd [00:32:28]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:32:29]:
But, but Pinterest is great for inspiration for, like, trend forecasting. We're just not there yet. But it's on the radar. And I think similarly, Pinterest is like the least toxic of the social platforms, I think.
Verity Hurd [00:32:42]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:32:42]:
Like, I, I, I go on Pinterest all the time and I leave there feeling better.
Verity Hurd [00:32:45]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:32:45]:
Not on, Sometimes not on TikTok, I leave feeling worse.
Verity Hurd [00:32:48]:
Oh.
Gabriel Gomez [00:32:49]:
Just because I'm like, I'm stressed.
Verity Hurd [00:32:50]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:32:51]:
Like, I gotta go find someone famous and, like, work with them. You know what I mean? Like, like the pressure's on, but on Pinterest, I'm like, I added this to my mood board. Like, I'm happy.
Verity Hurd [00:32:59]:
Yeah. I mean, Pinterest, I think, is still a massively underutilised tool for, yeah. For social teams. When I had the, when I was back in social, like, it was my favourite platform. And I think, yeah, still a lot of untapped, like, opportunities there because I don't, it's, you know, it is a discovery platform. They say that themselves. And you're right, people go there because they're, they, they've got something in mind. They, they know kind of what they want to look for.
Verity Hurd [00:33:25]:
It's not quite as exact as Google, like Google or YouTube. You'd be like, how do I do this?
Gabriel Gomez [00:33:30]:
Yeah.
Verity Hurd [00:33:30]:
You know, Whereas on Pinterest it's a little bit more sort of open, but still, they've got something in mind and I think they just want that platform to make them feel that way and they're doing a great job.
Gabriel Gomez [00:33:39]:
They're doing it.
Verity Hurd [00:33:40]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:33:40]:
They're doing it.
Verity Hurd [00:33:41]:
Yeah. How does the sort of, like, strategy for each platform look like for you guys?
Gabriel Gomez [00:33:47]:
We right now are. We test a lot more on, on TikTok, because again, we feel like we can.
Verity Hurd [00:33:53]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:33:54]:
And so the strategy differs in that, like, if we want to do something crazy, let's do it on TikTok first and see how it goes.
Verity Hurd [00:34:01]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:34:02]:
But I think we're considering that for Instagram too, because with, like, the trial reels, fe. Sure you're able to show content to a different audience and, and see how it goes. So. So I think we'll start to consider that. But on TikTok we're like, if we want to like, we'll likely like do tick tock live before we do Instagram and again, but that, that's just tied to the community. So I think we're much more sort of like wild, Wild west on TikTok. And it's paid off.
Verity Hurd [00:34:26]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:34:27]:
And on Instagram we are sticking to the script per se, but I think we'll, we'll definitely find our footing there soon. But I think when you're testing on platforms, do exactly that. Just like try different things. As long as you know you're not breaking stuff. I mean if you break one thing, like, whatever. But. But yeah, that, that's sort of my take.
Verity Hurd [00:34:46]:
Yeah. Yeah. And obviously Pinterest is something for the Future is like YouTube.
Gabriel Gomez [00:34:51]:
Yeah.
Verity Hurd [00:34:51]:
As well.
Gabriel Gomez [00:34:52]:
We're doing that thing. We're doing that lazy thing right now. I'm so sorry. Oh my God. The lazy thing where we're like, let's syndicate to YouTube short. Like we have all this short form content. Let's like see how it does. And like we've posted like I think like 15 to 20 videos and they're getting more views than our, than some of our platforms that have like almost 200,000 followers.
Gabriel Gomez [00:35:10]:
Why asking you now. But, but it's interesting. Like you don't have anything to lose is I guess what I'm trying to say. Yeah, do it. And if it. And if it rocks, it rocks. And lean in.
Verity Hurd [00:35:21]:
Yeah. Event that we did, we actually had someone who was YouTube consultant and she also managed the channel for JD Sports. And I think a lot of just coming back to what you said about like, why is it gaining more views? And yeah, I think, I think it does come down to sort of like the social search element part of it and the indexing and all of that stuff. And it can still happen on TikTok. Like if you get that indexing bit right and you get everything in the right places, then you know, it can still trigger a viral moment like seven days later.
Gabriel Gomez [00:35:53]:
Yeah.
Verity Hurd [00:35:54]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:35:54]:
Hate that.
Verity Hurd [00:35:55]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:35:56]:
Hey, people love that as well.
Verity Hurd [00:35:59]:
Okay, what is one bold prediction you'd make about the creative economy by the end of this year? And I don't want to trend, I want a shift.
Gabriel Gomez [00:36:08]:
Whoa. Good question. I guess I'll make something up right now.
Verity Hurd [00:36:11]:
Okay. Yes, please.
Gabriel Gomez [00:36:12]:
I think a bold shift in the creator economy. Wow. I actually think that. I know some people have Been like it's the end. Like the bubble is going to pop someday soon. Like, I don't think that's actually true. I think it's going to be much larger. I think it's going to continue to grow and grow exponentially.
Verity Hurd [00:36:31]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:36:33]:
And I think creators are gonna make, maybe start making briefs for brand teams. I think creators are gonna be maybe the like extension of creative teams actually. Because sometimes I'm like, this brand should do this and I'll like email them and like they sometimes do it. And so I think that will be a bit more like formalised. And I think that's gonna, that's gonna bring on a really interesting sort of era for social in the creator economy where, where creators are creatives for brands. And, and I think that's really going to help because it's going to just get the brands outside of their usual sort of the usual space. So I don't know, is that bold enough? It's like creators being creative for brains.
Verity Hurd [00:37:13]:
Okay, I'm joking.
Gabriel Gomez [00:37:15]:
I'm ready.
Verity Hurd [00:37:17]:
You've got another one. Go for it.
Gabriel Gomez [00:37:18]:
I don't.
Verity Hurd [00:37:19]:
Okay, what about one unpopular opinion that you hold about where beauty marketing is headed?
Gabriel Gomez [00:37:25]:
Whoa, an unpopular opinion. It's interesting. I actually read an article a few days ago where it was like, you know, a lot of people think or thought that beauty was like recession proof for like a long time.
Verity Hurd [00:37:38]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:37:39]:
And the bubble is like popping a little bit there. But I think an unpopular shift is that a lot of the legacy brands are gonna lose their footing a bit if they don't adapt and innovate and speed in the speed that like these new consumers are sort of like demand.
Verity Hurd [00:37:59]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:37:59]:
And I don't think that's like a foreboding statement. I just think that's like sort of like where business is headed to like TikTok shop alone. TikTok shop is like 2 years old, 3 years old, something crazy. And it's already generated I think like 4 billion in sales. That's like more than Amazon generated in the first 15 years of its business.
Verity Hurd [00:38:18]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:38:19]:
So why, why isn't, why aren't legacy brands like talking about that enough yet?
Verity Hurd [00:38:24]:
Is it because you think it's like, you know, we mentioned it earlier around that infrastructure and it needing approval. That takes far too long. And then by the time they get it, it's irrelevant. Like might as well.
Gabriel Gomez [00:38:36]:
I think that definitely plays a role. I think like the unpopular opinion, I guess for me is that like the teams aren't adapting at the speed that they need to. I Think timing is everything. And so if you're trying to innovate with 50 people, like, maybe don't.
Verity Hurd [00:38:51]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:38:51]:
I don't know, maybe don't. I think, like, you know, if you wanna. That. That saying, that's like, if you wanna go fast, go alone. If you wanna go far, go together, like, bring one or two more people with you to go fast, you know, and try to do it again.
Verity Hurd [00:39:03]:
It's a conversation that I've had a lot over the last few days around speed. And there was one brand and they were saying how in 10 weeks they go from concept to product to the consumer and also the whole product. Yeah. And the campaigns, like. Yeah, they were saying they get, I think about five weeks to kind of come up with it and get it out there and. And that, you know, this. The structure that they had, they were fortunate. They have in house pods and things like that.
Verity Hurd [00:39:28]:
But they're built that, you know, they're built to work at speed, like beyond probably what we're.
Gabriel Gomez [00:39:34]:
Yeah, I think that has to be how you do it.
Verity Hurd [00:39:37]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:39:38]:
Sorry, everyone.
Verity Hurd [00:39:39]:
No, I know. I agree. And I think, you know, it's a shame. Not a shame. But I think it is turning a corner back to. To. We've got to be quick with this now in this space.
Gabriel Gomez [00:39:48]:
Yeah.
Verity Hurd [00:39:49]:
Another big question. How do you build brand advocacy? How do you guys do it?
Gabriel Gomez [00:39:53]:
How do we do it?
Verity Hurd [00:39:55]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:39:56]:
Gosh, I think sometimes as marketers, we feel like the work is, like, more important than it is. And so to build real advocacy, I think you have to be really honest with yourself and be like, no one's going to be that excited about our new logo or no one's going to be that excited about a 10% off coupon. To build brand advocacy, you have to give people what they want it, what they really want. Like, have you been getting a hundred comments of about people complaining about something for the last three years that you guys have ignored?
Verity Hurd [00:40:29]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:40:29]:
You might build advocacy by addressing that.
Verity Hurd [00:40:31]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:40:32]:
Right. So. So I think advocacy is about listening, like, actively listening and reacting in the right ways.
Verity Hurd [00:40:40]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:40:41]:
And in ways that feel empowering and not like belittling to the community. Right. I mean, how many times have we seen brands tank because their community, like, turns a corner and they're like, we're over it.
Verity Hurd [00:40:51]:
Yeah.
Gabriel Gomez [00:40:52]:
So. So, yeah, I think, I think that's just so critical.
Verity Hurd [00:40:54]:
No, it's a great answer. I think there's two things there. One is no one cares about features and benefits. And like you say, no one cares about logo, like they want the connection. They we need the connection now in the space that we're in. Gabe, this was awesome. Thank you so much. If anyone wanted to reach out to you, where would be the best place they could find you?
Gabriel Gomez [00:41:12]:
Yeah, I mean I'm okay camera one, you can go on LinkedIn and just be like Gabe Gomez and co and then, and then I should come up. So find me there. I have neglected my Instagram because I'm too busy on em close Instagram so LinkedIn is the best place.
Verity Hurd [00:41:26]:
Awesome. Thank you.
Gabriel Gomez [00:41:27]:
Thanks for having me.
Paul Archer [00:41:30]:
That was another episode of Building Brand Advocacy, the world's top brand building podcast. To find out more about Building Brand Advocacy and how this podcasts as part of a bigger plan for our brand building cookbook. Then make sure to search for Building Brand Advocacy in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or anywhere else that podcasts are fine. And make sure that you click subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes. Thanks to Jool for sponsoring. To find out more, go to www.dual.tech. that's D U E L dot T E C H And on behalf of the team here at Building Brand Advocacy, thanks for listen.
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